Message from @ConceptHut
Discord ID: 506718749886382080
fuck, if i was better atwords...
I imagine most people would agree that blowing up a tree isn't immoral but blowing up a person is immoral.
Is it immoral to kill yourself?
that depends on your view of selfishness
if you see selfishness as a bad thing, then murder is immoral. suicide is too, as it is 'self murder'
murder, specifically, is the act of killing another person willfully and with intent to do so. we recognise that murder with 'just cause' (self defense, defense of others, etc) is acceptable, but without these justifications murder is simply an extreme act of selfishness
Distill the exception.
Put another way, you noted it, but let's pull it out what differentiates acceptable from unacceptable.
ah. the act of preserving your own life, or the lives of others, is seen as a fundamental right of everyone. hence, 'just cause' is primarily granted when expressing this right
Justified is the part I was alluding to.
What is being justified? The imparting of detriment upon another entity. But how is it justified?
NOTE: You don't have to justify imparting benefit upon another entity.
its 2:30 am where i am, and thinking is not something my brain wants me to do at this moment. would you mind simplifying what you mean?
Which part?
It's 1:35am where I am but my brain is an asshole and won't let me sleep.
ah, i think i get what you said. you dont have to justify doing something good to someone else. but you do need to justify doing something bad. and the question you ask is why this is
am i correct?
Very correct
There are three moral states.
Immoral - Morally Nuetral - Moral
Morally nuetral is where it neither benefits nor detriments another party.
For instance if I say hello to someone, it has done neither a positive nor negative thing to them.
I more or less have been asking people that very blunt question of how to morally prove murder is wrong because I'm curious how other people justify the claim to themselves.
I've developed an objective morality framework but I'm pretty curious how other people go about it in every day life even with obviously immoral things.
The justification part is where people seem to lose the plot.
Everything else I think people can wrap their heads around pretty easily when someone makes it explicit but justification part just seems complicated.
Mainly because there are three words associated: Justified/justification, just, justice
They are NOT the same things.
Since it is late and you alluded to being a bit tired for such a heavy topic, I'd like to ask you a different question that is related.
If you were able to have it proven to you that objective morality based on pure reason existed and how it works, how would that impact your life and perspective of life in general?
not very much actually. though i am religious and feel that religion is a good path to mortality, i see human beings as highly complicated creatures who are capable of reason in many different ways. a catholic, a jew, and an atheist may come to 'mortality' on different paths, but in the end they end up agreeing more than they disagree when it comes to right and wrong.
granted, you always have those people whose path led them to justifying things that are not right, in the name of being right. a christian who thinks gayness is evil, a muslim who thinks 'others' are evil, and atheist who thinks religion is itself evil, and so on
Those would be based on theory, not proof. It's like if a bunch of groups theorized what the shape of earth and then got proved it was a globe shape and either had to give into the facts or be provably delusional.
Think of it like religion even.
If the Christian God, the supernatural one, was proven to be real and created reality and the people in it, that would have a massively interesting effect on both Christians who just had faith, and atheists who just didn't believe it at all.
when you say 'prove', by which method do you mean? philosophy is not something that can be proven through something scientific
Agnostics would be like “neat”
@Cirno I think god coming down and being like “yup, I exist” would be pretty solid proof assuming it did something godlike
@Cirno - Science was born of philosphy. Science just has a way of proving things via logic and facts.
Well