I think they did improve it

under certain leaders

less so under others

case study in the unsustainability of democratic rule

as much as we like the republic because of our time and how we are taught to value democratic systems, the romans didn't miss it

The republic was never ment to be a democracy not in rome and not in the US

I know, but that's what it devolved into

always does

there will always be someone willing to corrupt the system for their own gain

I made sure not to call it a democracy

the monarchies of europe also devolved into it so Im not sure thats a consequence of being a republic or just a sign of the times we live in.

yeah, there's a lot of ingredients to consider

I like to relate it to early human bands

take the dynamics at play around a camp fire where a small group of nomads are deciding what to do

expand that out to larger groups

same dynamics at play, just less controllable

my older view on it changed when I learned about what the british found when they studied primitive tribes and watched them transition right in front of their eyes

there was a good show on it I listened to.

I'll find it for you

I'd be very interested in that

primitive tribes are fascinating, sadly there are not so many left

I think it's this one.

http://www.martyrmade.com/martyrmade-podcast-9-sacrifice-oppression-at-the-dawn-of-tyranny-sacrifice-cannibalism-pt-2/

part two of two

The british basically triggered a bunch of tribes into transitioning into modern societies (think trade and money, not iphones)

I think what they saw was close to what happened to all the rest of us naturally, but there was no one around to write it down when our ancestors did it.

martyrmade is a great podcast

the first series is the history of zionism.

awesome series

Very auspicious. Ill give it a listen and report back.

"Human sacrifice is not a human universal. The institution emerges at a specific stage of human sociopolitical development, and recedes when the transition is complete. Rarely found among nomadic hunter-gatherers, ritual homicide is also nearly absent in archaic civilizations (except for a few residual instances such as royal burials). But human beings didn’t make the leap from nomadic foragers to pyramid builders overnight. Nestled between was a transitional stage, when newly-settled people faced the monumental task of ditching the ancient kinship system, sacrificing their freedom to kings, and reorganizing themselves into the first states. This fraught transition was imposed by violence, as primitive egalitarianism was replaced by class oppression, and human sacrifice was employed to define social boundaries and to stave off panic with brutal acts of self-assertion. Kings gloried in their total freedom, the less fortunate were terrorized into submission, and the gods looked on with dripping fangs and growling stomachs."

I find the subject interesting, but I hope it wont be some weird primitive communism propaganda hour. I think the concept of primitive communism is bunk. As most of the stuff by Marx and Engels. Ok all of it.

Well, from what I remember, this missionary lived with a primitive tribe for years and learned their ways.

they were very different from us

brb

when the brit was getting ready to leave, he bought a cow for the tribe so they could have a feast

everyone told him it was the skinniest sickly looking cow they'd ever seen

after hearing this from everyone he was feeling down because he thought he bought them a good cow and wanted them to enjoy it

one of them took him aside and said, "you've been with us all this time and you still dont get us."

in order to avoid conflict, which would seriously damage their survival if one of them hurt, killed, or even alienated another, they had strong cultural barriers to pride

anyone who did anything great would pretend like it was not great, and everyone else would also pretend like it was not great