Message from @Gromp
Discord ID: 650362966327164941
Progressivism means the rejection of tradition, not new tech
Internationalism is gay regardless of what marx said
Kinda but traditionalism is mostly holding technological progress back yk, as to internationalism; well that’s where our viewpoints fundamentally diverge; you want to keep the state I want to let it wither away eventually
And spread the revolution as far and wide as possible
Nations are a naturally forming phenomenon and each nation forms its own traditions. Some of these traditions are different, but often times far apart nations hold the same values.
Traditionalism is the embrace of these values.
I’m not saying you’re not allowed to have those; I just think they should play no great part in politics
Why? A country needs a culture and that's why you need some traditions.
You need values
You can have them without the state, states merely came to embody these values they did not create them
Yes. So why not have a state embody the values through policy?
Because the debate should be a cultural level not a state level one
It should be decided by the people
Just because something is popular, doesn't mean something is right.
Modern society clearly shows this
Well that’s what traditions are tho
Unpopular ones just die out
People only keep what they like
If no one follows a tradition it dies out, true. But in the modern world you can see many traditions remain but are only followed by some people. Essentially any revolutionary government would have the option to save these traditions by promoting them or enforcing them.
Leaving it to the people won't necessarily give you the right choice.
If there's no inherent value then why are they so universal? Most traditional values have value. Honour for instance, it was a way to draw a line between legitimate acts of revenge, plus warfare and crime or murder.
It was in a way an ancient geneva convention lol
Yea but by now “honor” is codified, you’ve got laws, courts and conventions to cull excesses. They outlived their usefulness
There may be need for honor at an individual level
To keep going or rationalize behavior
But not a state one
Exactly. Just because somethinf is written in law doesn't mean people agree with it. Honour was and is something which an individual believes in and does regardless of laws. If the state collapsed tomorrow, a moral and honourable person would continue to not kill and steal whereas many might resort to that as no one is stopping them.
How many people in the modern day are really morally opposed to stealing? What if they needed the food?
Are you actually tryna tell me that before modern times no one ever looked out for number one first and foremost? History clearly shows otherwise
Also again: I’m not opposed to the concept of honor or whatever at an individual level
Just a state one
Not everyone in ancient times was honourable, but honour was a concept which more people held because it was culturally embedded. I hear what you're saying, but thay leaves no guarantee people will actually embrace the concept.
No matter how hard you instill it into people: if the only foods is on another’s pouch people will eventually resort to stealing it. That’s just how it works when the only choice is between you or someone else going hungry.
Mean it’s certainly a noble concept and I think it’s admirable that you put so much thought onto people acting moral but I personally think the state should be more concerned with the welfare of its people rather than some abstract concept that’ll only come into play if the state crumbles
I’d much rather make people act morally by letting them live good lives than drilling the concept into their heads
May be somewhat idealist but yea
Culture is top down, not ground up. The institutions governing and pervading society are what determine culture and such.
@Gromp You make the mistake of assuming you cannot combine social tradition with technological innovation
Not saying that, my main problem with them are the other reasons I outlined above they just seem to hinder technological progress from what I’ve seen @Maksim