But at the same time, Russia was an enemy that couldn't be ignored.

It was a really fucked position to even start out in.

🤦 Russia was their ally for most of the war.....

German intelligence believed that Russia was planning to turn on them, and so they launched a preemptive attack. Later declassified historical documents from Russia revealed, they were *right.*

Russia *was* planning to attack Germany, and Germany just beat them to the punch.

Umm, no. Stalin actually dismissed the intelligence officer who claimed Hitler was going to attack. He really overestimated their logistic acumen. And that's from the Kremlin archives. There were train cars of oil headed from Bakut to Germany when Barbarossa started.

What you have to recognize is that the axis wasn't very good as an alliance. They were basically lying to each other half the time.

I forget the source, I read it a while back. But basically, they were both preparing to betray each other, and Germany just acted first, while Russia still believed they had something to gain from delaying it.

And yeah, they weren't a very good alliance, very opportunistic.

Well my source is Kotkin who is basically writing the definitive biography on Stalin. I'd also add that Snyder draws a very similar picture.

I'd have to rediscover my source, before I could really compare notes.

But also, am I correct in assuming your position is that the Russians *had no* plans in place to betray Germany, prior to the German attack?

Yeah about the soviets were going to invade germany
that was bs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyANHGWbUHA

A big part of it comes down to the simple fact that Socialism, whether German or Russian, does not work very well. So they end up in a situation where they have to keep finding someone new to rob. So yeah sure they all probably had plans to shiv each other at some point. Just that the idea that Barbarossa was some brilliant spoiler attack for an imminent Bolshevik invasion is shite.

If Russia was planning an invasion that year they likely would have moved some troops that way or something.....

https://puu.sh/DTMiW/6d6166777b.png

Forgive me if I take this source with a grain of salt

That video was pretty fucking epic you should check it out.

Door open on the inside

???

I saw the words undermine holocaust.

COuld you try again in English?

well, my point was more just a meme than anything

No

Well I mean since you brought it up let's watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtACBI1Txrc

Holy shit, I actually watched it, and it's dumber than I thought it would be.

Like, I figured he would just rehash some wiki tier historical documentation about the details of the holocaust, but instead he literally just argues that Hitler being a socialist means he had to have killed 6 million Jews.

Not even that it would be in line with his mission, but that it must have happened.

You weren't paying attention I see.

Basically all he's establishing is *motive*

"Tryanny"

"Tranny"

<:pepelaugh:544857300179877898>

I'll watch it in a minute but my first contention without even watching it is that holocaust "deniers" don't call themselves 'deniers' they call themselves revisionist.
The genuine historians never claim to deny the Holocaust but simply refute it's details, such as gas chambers, furher orders, etc.

My contention is less that I'm really sold on any particular narrative of what happened, and more that I'm concerned with how aggressively anyone trying to argue counter to the mainstream narrative is silenced.

YEs it was a video about motives. If you want an actual exhaustive account of where the killing happened and why I would suggest Snyder's *Bloodlands*.

My suspicion, is that there were executions of Jews, probably even on a massive scale. Much of the death was likely due to starvation and disease however, and the gas chambers themselves, particularly their widescale implementation is a highly suspicious detail, as is the mass incineration.

The specific *number* is also highly suspicious, but it's perfectly possible there were indeed millions killed.

Exactly. If you're in Europe they'll lock you up.
If you're in America (like with David Cole) they'll have Jewish Terrorist put money out for your head.

And if you're publishing books on Amazon, they'll intimidate the company into taking them down. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I believe it's highly likely certain details which have been enshrined in the official narrative are largely embellishments. Simply what endured after the more fanciful accounts were whittled away.