Message from shinjitsu in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:25:14 UTC  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

2018-01-16 17:25:40 UTC  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

2018-01-16 17:26:24 UTC  

No they can't

2018-01-16 17:26:52 UTC  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

2018-01-16 17:27:17 UTC  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

2018-01-16 17:28:12 UTC  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

2018-01-16 17:28:40 UTC  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

2018-01-16 17:30:03 UTC  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

2018-01-16 17:30:32 UTC  

It means that you can though

2018-01-16 17:30:47 UTC  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

2018-01-16 17:31:02 UTC  

unless the person's actions don't matter

2018-01-16 17:31:09 UTC  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

2018-01-16 17:31:14 UTC  

You misunderstand

2018-01-16 17:31:16 UTC  

These are non-arguments

2018-01-16 17:32:01 UTC  

Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell

2018-01-16 17:32:20 UTC  

You can't say that and still have free will

2018-01-16 17:32:24 UTC  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

2018-01-16 17:32:29 UTC  

Of course you can

2018-01-16 17:32:40 UTC  

because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven

2018-01-16 17:32:59 UTC  

As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:13 UTC  

This is just logically false

2018-01-16 17:33:16 UTC  

He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out

2018-01-16 17:33:20 UTC  

you can not give free will while remaining omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:41 UTC  

Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way

2018-01-16 17:33:49 UTC  

Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency

2018-01-16 17:33:59 UTC  

no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.

2018-01-16 17:34:06 UTC  

The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway

2018-01-16 17:34:25 UTC  

You are still the agent carrying out said actions

2018-01-16 17:34:28 UTC  

No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones

2018-01-16 17:34:40 UTC  

*You* are the one making the choices, not God

2018-01-16 17:34:57 UTC  

No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.

2018-01-16 17:35:18 UTC  

This is not up for debate, this is widely accepted as problem by people you probably agree with

2018-01-16 17:35:49 UTC  

In this scenario free will is an illusion

2018-01-16 17:36:10 UTC  

It's why Calvinism (specifically predestination) is wrong and where these disagreements come from

2018-01-16 17:36:35 UTC  

Of course there is. If God is all knowing - as described in the Bible, then He will know all possible actions you could take throughout your life - I.e. there is still a level of personal input necessary. God doesn't force people to do anything - he merely observes.

2018-01-16 17:36:44 UTC  

No wait

2018-01-16 17:36:56 UTC  

*possible actions* is not the same as saying knowing which actions the person will take

2018-01-16 17:37:00 UTC  

Thus it's still *your* choices, but God knows what choices you make.

2018-01-16 17:37:10 UTC  

Prior to you making them?

2018-01-16 17:37:49 UTC  

Just yes or no prior to you making them, does God know what decision you will make? In your opinion

2018-01-16 17:39:02 UTC  

If an entity is all knowing it will know everything - possible actions as well as what actions will be taken. God knows that humans have a level of autonomy and as such their actions are of their own volition - God, however, still knows what path the individual will take.

Again, the idea is that God is omniscient, but not necessarily interventionist in the paths of individuals