Messsage from SGL in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed


shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:24:08  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:25:14  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

SGL 2018-01-16 17:25:40  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:24  

No they can't

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:52  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

SGL 2018-01-16 17:27:17  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:12  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:40  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

SGL 2018-01-16 17:30:03  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:32  

It means that you can though

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:47  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:02  

unless the person's actions don't matter

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:09  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:14  

You misunderstand

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:16  

These are non-arguments

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:01  

Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:32:20  

You can't say that and still have free will

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:24  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:29  

Of course you can

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:32:40  

because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:59  

As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:13  

This is just logically false

SGL 2018-01-16 17:33:16  

He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:20  

you can not give free will while remaining omniscient

SGL 2018-01-16 17:33:41  

Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:49  

Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:59  

no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:06  

The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:25  

You are still the agent carrying out said actions

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:34:28  

No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:40  

*You* are the one making the choices, not God

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:34:57  

No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:35:18  

This is not up for debate, this is widely accepted as problem by people you probably agree with

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:35:49  

In this scenario free will is an illusion

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:36:10  

It's why Calvinism (specifically predestination) is wrong and where these disagreements come from

SGL 2018-01-16 17:36:35  

Of course there is. If God is all knowing - as described in the Bible, then He will know all possible actions you could take throughout your life - I.e. there is still a level of personal input necessary. God doesn't force people to do anything - he merely observes.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:36:44  

No wait

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:36:56  

*possible actions* is not the same as saying knowing which actions the person will take

SGL 2018-01-16 17:37:00  

Thus it's still *your* choices, but God knows what choices you make.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:37:10  

Prior to you making them?

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:37:49  

Just yes or no prior to you making them, does God know what decision you will make? In your opinion