Message from shinjitsu in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:23:13 UTC  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

2018-01-16 17:23:31 UTC  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

2018-01-16 17:23:35 UTC  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

2018-01-16 17:23:58 UTC  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

2018-01-16 17:24:08 UTC  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

2018-01-16 17:25:14 UTC  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

2018-01-16 17:25:40 UTC  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

2018-01-16 17:26:24 UTC  

No they can't

2018-01-16 17:26:52 UTC  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

2018-01-16 17:27:17 UTC  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

2018-01-16 17:28:12 UTC  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

2018-01-16 17:28:40 UTC  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

2018-01-16 17:30:03 UTC  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

2018-01-16 17:30:32 UTC  

It means that you can though

2018-01-16 17:30:47 UTC  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

2018-01-16 17:31:02 UTC  

unless the person's actions don't matter

2018-01-16 17:31:09 UTC  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

2018-01-16 17:31:14 UTC  

You misunderstand

2018-01-16 17:31:16 UTC  

These are non-arguments

2018-01-16 17:32:01 UTC  

Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell

2018-01-16 17:32:20 UTC  

You can't say that and still have free will

2018-01-16 17:32:24 UTC  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

2018-01-16 17:32:29 UTC  

Of course you can

2018-01-16 17:32:40 UTC  

because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven

2018-01-16 17:32:59 UTC  

As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:13 UTC  

This is just logically false

2018-01-16 17:33:16 UTC  

He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out

2018-01-16 17:33:20 UTC  

you can not give free will while remaining omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:41 UTC  

Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way

2018-01-16 17:33:49 UTC  

Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency

2018-01-16 17:33:59 UTC  

no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.

2018-01-16 17:34:06 UTC  

The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway

2018-01-16 17:34:25 UTC  

You are still the agent carrying out said actions

2018-01-16 17:34:28 UTC  

No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones

2018-01-16 17:34:40 UTC  

*You* are the one making the choices, not God

2018-01-16 17:34:57 UTC  

No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.

2018-01-16 17:35:18 UTC  

This is not up for debate, this is widely accepted as problem by people you probably agree with

2018-01-16 17:35:49 UTC  

In this scenario free will is an illusion

2018-01-16 17:36:10 UTC  

It's why Calvinism (specifically predestination) is wrong and where these disagreements come from

2018-01-16 17:36:35 UTC  

Of course there is. If God is all knowing - as described in the Bible, then He will know all possible actions you could take throughout your life - I.e. there is still a level of personal input necessary. God doesn't force people to do anything - he merely observes.

2018-01-16 17:36:44 UTC  

No wait