I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.
@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.
Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable
I'm not saying we can or have to know
Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid
You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'
I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in
@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us
Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.
No they can't
Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth
Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?
meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.
What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this
As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.
It means that you can though
and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell
unless the person's actions don't matter
If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?
These are non-arguments
Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell
You can't say that and still have free will
I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines
Of course you can
because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven
As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient
This is just logically false
He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out
you can not give free will while remaining omniscient
Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way
Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency
no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.
The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway
You are still the agent carrying out said actions
No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones
*You* are the one making the choices, not God
No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.
This is not up for debate, this is widely accepted as problem by people you probably agree with
In this scenario free will is an illusion
It's why Calvinism (specifically predestination) is wrong and where these disagreements come from