Messsage from shinjitsu in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:06  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:19  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:37  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:20:36  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:22:43  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:13  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:23:31  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:35  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:58  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:24:08  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:25:14  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

SGL 2018-01-16 17:25:40  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:24  

No they can't

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:52  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

SGL 2018-01-16 17:27:17  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:12  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:40  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

SGL 2018-01-16 17:30:03  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:32  

It means that you can though

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:47  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:02  

unless the person's actions don't matter

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:09  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:14  

You misunderstand

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:16  

These are non-arguments

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:01  

Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:32:20  

You can't say that and still have free will

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:24  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:29  

Of course you can

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:32:40  

because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven

SGL 2018-01-16 17:32:59  

As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:13  

This is just logically false

SGL 2018-01-16 17:33:16  

He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:20  

you can not give free will while remaining omniscient

SGL 2018-01-16 17:33:41  

Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:49  

Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:33:59  

no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:06  

The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:25  

You are still the agent carrying out said actions

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:34:28  

No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones

SGL 2018-01-16 17:34:40  

*You* are the one making the choices, not God

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:34:57  

No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.