Message from SGL in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:14:54 UTC  

We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up

2018-01-16 17:16:17 UTC  

I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.

2018-01-16 17:16:23 UTC  

I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.

2018-01-16 17:16:35 UTC  

Yes, that makes sense.

2018-01-16 17:16:47 UTC  

Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?

2018-01-16 17:17:14 UTC  

You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.

2018-01-16 17:17:25 UTC  

Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend

2018-01-16 17:17:40 UTC  

IQ is both but this is irrelevant

2018-01-16 17:17:51 UTC  

As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.

2018-01-16 17:17:59 UTC  

But, he did give us free will.

2018-01-16 17:18:16 UTC  

Predetermined is fine

2018-01-16 17:18:26 UTC  

It's only to a degree though

2018-01-16 17:19:04 UTC  

@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own

2018-01-16 17:19:06 UTC  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

2018-01-16 17:19:19 UTC  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

2018-01-16 17:19:37 UTC  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

2018-01-16 17:20:36 UTC  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

2018-01-16 17:22:43 UTC  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

2018-01-16 17:23:13 UTC  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

2018-01-16 17:23:31 UTC  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

2018-01-16 17:23:35 UTC  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

2018-01-16 17:23:58 UTC  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

2018-01-16 17:24:08 UTC  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

2018-01-16 17:25:14 UTC  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

2018-01-16 17:25:40 UTC  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

2018-01-16 17:26:24 UTC  

No they can't

2018-01-16 17:26:52 UTC  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

2018-01-16 17:27:17 UTC  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

2018-01-16 17:28:12 UTC  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

2018-01-16 17:28:40 UTC  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

2018-01-16 17:30:03 UTC  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

2018-01-16 17:30:32 UTC  

It means that you can though

2018-01-16 17:30:47 UTC  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

2018-01-16 17:31:02 UTC  

unless the person's actions don't matter

2018-01-16 17:31:09 UTC  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

2018-01-16 17:31:14 UTC  

You misunderstand

2018-01-16 17:31:16 UTC  

These are non-arguments

2018-01-16 17:32:01 UTC  

Im saying that, since God is all-knowing, those predestined to go to heaven will be those who would act in accordance to His will regardless of whether they go to Heaven or Hell

2018-01-16 17:32:20 UTC  

You can't say that and still have free will

2018-01-16 17:32:24 UTC  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

2018-01-16 17:32:29 UTC  

Of course you can