Messsage from Thomas in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:58  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:07  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:14:21  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:35  

Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:54  

We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:16:17  

I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:16:23  

I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:16:35  

Yes, that makes sense.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:16:47  

Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:14  

You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:17:25  

Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:17:40  

IQ is both but this is irrelevant

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:51  

As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:59  

But, he did give us free will.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:18:16  

Predetermined is fine

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:18:26  

It's only to a degree though

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:19:04  

@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:06  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:19  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:37  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:20:36  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:22:43  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:13  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:23:31  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:35  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:58  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:24:08  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:25:14  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

SGL 2018-01-16 17:25:40  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:24  

No they can't

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:26:52  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

SGL 2018-01-16 17:27:17  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:12  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:28:40  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this

SGL 2018-01-16 17:30:03  

As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:32  

It means that you can though

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:30:47  

and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:02  

unless the person's actions don't matter

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:09  

If that's true why do people feel regret/sadness for killing others?

SGL 2018-01-16 17:31:14  

You misunderstand

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:31:16  

These are non-arguments