Message from Thomas in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:11:31 UTC  

Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.

2018-01-16 17:11:34 UTC  

Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas

2018-01-16 17:12:46 UTC  

Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will

2018-01-16 17:13:02 UTC  

Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?

2018-01-16 17:13:15 UTC  

I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?

If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same

2018-01-16 17:13:17 UTC  

Intent isn't what predestination says

2018-01-16 17:13:45 UTC  

You can't just use the word in a different sense

2018-01-16 17:13:58 UTC  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

2018-01-16 17:14:07 UTC  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

2018-01-16 17:14:21 UTC  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.

2018-01-16 17:14:35 UTC  

Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%

2018-01-16 17:14:54 UTC  

We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up

2018-01-16 17:16:17 UTC  

I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.

2018-01-16 17:16:23 UTC  

I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.

2018-01-16 17:16:35 UTC  

Yes, that makes sense.

2018-01-16 17:16:47 UTC  

Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?

2018-01-16 17:17:14 UTC  

You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.

2018-01-16 17:17:25 UTC  

Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend

2018-01-16 17:17:40 UTC  

IQ is both but this is irrelevant

2018-01-16 17:17:51 UTC  

As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.

2018-01-16 17:17:59 UTC  

But, he did give us free will.

2018-01-16 17:18:16 UTC  

Predetermined is fine

2018-01-16 17:18:26 UTC  

It's only to a degree though

2018-01-16 17:19:04 UTC  

@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own

2018-01-16 17:19:06 UTC  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

2018-01-16 17:19:19 UTC  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

2018-01-16 17:19:37 UTC  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

2018-01-16 17:20:36 UTC  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

2018-01-16 17:22:43 UTC  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

2018-01-16 17:23:13 UTC  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

2018-01-16 17:23:31 UTC  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

2018-01-16 17:23:35 UTC  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

2018-01-16 17:23:58 UTC  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

2018-01-16 17:24:08 UTC  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

2018-01-16 17:25:14 UTC  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us

2018-01-16 17:25:40 UTC  

Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.

2018-01-16 17:26:24 UTC  

No they can't

2018-01-16 17:26:52 UTC  

Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth

2018-01-16 17:27:17 UTC  

Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?

2018-01-16 17:28:12 UTC  

meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.

2018-01-16 17:28:40 UTC  

What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this