In a theological sense, one cannot exist without the other.
By extension it's wrong
No you can't have both
Contradictions can persist everywhere that our minds can't comprehend. We know of only three dimensions, but that does not exclusively mean we do not feel the effects of a fourth, or that one does not exist somewhere.
Sure but you can't make any claim that's not the same as a contradicting
Of course you can. Otherwise why would humans be moral at all? If they are ascertained to not be one of the 'chosen few' then why do they not use their autonomy to live a hedonistic lifestyle? Because one can never truly know whether one is or isn't part of said chosen few and as such it's in one's best interest to act in a moral way.
I'm saying it is outlined in our religious texts specifically, that he did give us agency, but at the same time he does have some sort of intent, a plan.
You're talking about 2 things were consider that are mutually exclusive
A type of predestination.
But exclusively believing in predestination is wrong as well.
Larp you need to look up what predestination is.
Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.
Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas
Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will
Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?
I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?
If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same
Intent isn't what predestination says
You can't just use the word in a different sense
Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.
As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.
Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.
Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%
We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up
I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.
I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.
Yes, that makes sense.
Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?
You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.
Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend
IQ is both but this is irrelevant
As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.
But, he did give us free will.
Predetermined is fine
It's only to a degree though
@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own
I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can
Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you
I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real
I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.
@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.
Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable