Message from Thomas in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed


2018-01-16 17:08:50 UTC  

In a theological sense, one cannot exist without the other.

2018-01-16 17:08:53 UTC  

By extension it's wrong

2018-01-16 17:09:04 UTC  

No you can't have both

2018-01-16 17:10:17 UTC  

Contradictions can persist everywhere that our minds can't comprehend. We know of only three dimensions, but that does not exclusively mean we do not feel the effects of a fourth, or that one does not exist somewhere.

2018-01-16 17:10:39 UTC  

Sure but you can't make any claim that's not the same as a contradicting

2018-01-16 17:10:48 UTC  

Of course you can. Otherwise why would humans be moral at all? If they are ascertained to not be one of the 'chosen few' then why do they not use their autonomy to live a hedonistic lifestyle? Because one can never truly know whether one is or isn't part of said chosen few and as such it's in one's best interest to act in a moral way.

2018-01-16 17:10:51 UTC  

I'm saying it is outlined in our religious texts specifically, that he did give us agency, but at the same time he does have some sort of intent, a plan.

2018-01-16 17:10:52 UTC  

You're talking about 2 things were consider that are mutually exclusive

2018-01-16 17:10:57 UTC  

A type of predestination.

2018-01-16 17:11:09 UTC  

But exclusively believing in predestination is wrong as well.

2018-01-16 17:11:17 UTC  

Larp you need to look up what predestination is.

2018-01-16 17:11:31 UTC  

Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.

2018-01-16 17:11:34 UTC  

Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas

2018-01-16 17:12:46 UTC  

Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will

2018-01-16 17:13:02 UTC  

Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?

2018-01-16 17:13:15 UTC  

I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?

If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same

2018-01-16 17:13:17 UTC  

Intent isn't what predestination says

2018-01-16 17:13:45 UTC  

You can't just use the word in a different sense

2018-01-16 17:13:58 UTC  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

2018-01-16 17:14:07 UTC  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

2018-01-16 17:14:21 UTC  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.

2018-01-16 17:14:35 UTC  

Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%

2018-01-16 17:14:54 UTC  

We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up

2018-01-16 17:16:17 UTC  

I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.

2018-01-16 17:16:23 UTC  

I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.

2018-01-16 17:16:35 UTC  

Yes, that makes sense.

2018-01-16 17:16:47 UTC  

Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?

2018-01-16 17:17:14 UTC  

You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.

2018-01-16 17:17:25 UTC  

Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend

2018-01-16 17:17:40 UTC  

IQ is both but this is irrelevant

2018-01-16 17:17:51 UTC  

As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.

2018-01-16 17:17:59 UTC  

But, he did give us free will.

2018-01-16 17:18:16 UTC  

Predetermined is fine

2018-01-16 17:18:26 UTC  

It's only to a degree though

2018-01-16 17:19:04 UTC  

@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own

2018-01-16 17:19:06 UTC  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

2018-01-16 17:19:19 UTC  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

2018-01-16 17:19:37 UTC  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

2018-01-16 17:20:36 UTC  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

2018-01-16 17:22:43 UTC  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

2018-01-16 17:23:13 UTC  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable