so, for the purpose of the exercise, imagine that of course people can rebel and get away with it, but if the hammer comes down it would come down as hard as you imagine it should

i'd say i'd cut it off where government should recognize certain 'natural rights' by protecting them as 'legal rights'...particularly like the right to self-organize in business, certain basic property-rights, right to life, etc.

So, you are okay with someone owning a business specifically designed to manufacture firearms, imagining its a conglomerate this business too has a media department that agitates for the overthrow of the current government. So, this business is arming antigovernment elements, and agitating for more of them and more intense elements. This is okay for you? Government should not step in?

hm...things like threats are rightly excluded from the 'right to free speech', from my perspective, and this includes threats of revolution and killing those in government

intentional disastorous false alarms too, like shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater

Is there any form of non-violent cultural or government subversion that you are uncomfortable with. Any speech whatsoever that doesnt explicitly advocate violence that you think should be revoked or prevented?

i think all forms of speech that don't explicitly advocate violence should be protected

Would you not have a way for the government to intervene in the case that, people with dispraportionate social or economic power use that power, either against the interests of the people, or the government.

i think union-representation and tripartism take care of that

I mean nowadays you have people with antisocial market behavior, using their economic and cultural power, in lieu with those civil liberties you mentioned, against the interests of the people and the government.

hm...well, for example, i think the reason norway's model has worked is because of its tripartism, where there are contracts b/w government officials, union representatives, and business owners that aim to establish wages that are tolerable for all involved parties. a lot of people think norway's been doing well because of it's social democratic model, but i attribute it to tripartile contractualism

marxists label this as "unironic class collaboration"

but it works to tame the so called "wage slavery"

I think one of the bigger problems of democracy and the system you are suggesting is that when there are "bad actors" in the ecosystem of market economy or whatever else, the government is essentially powerless to stop them. Whether its an anti-social message, an anti-government message or so on. As long as they dont advocate violence they are within the "laws" and thus able to act with impunity.

Also, personally i think that the myth of democracy itself is damaging to a society. In reality, people do not have control over outcomes politically in a democracy, and yet we are all fed the lie that we need to do our "civic duty" to go vote. Have you ever once cast the deciding vote? Have you ever once swayed a politician with power on an issue? All the time we spend thinking and deliberating over who to vote for and what policies to go with and so on and so forth, the collective energy expended and in my opinion truly wasted is a travesty unto itself.

i think it matters in the aggregate though, even though it seems ineffectual on the individual level. and i'm willing to make the sacrifice of having a majority population of idiots vote for garbage government officials

in the name of muh democracy

😉

I honestly wouldnt mind a society set up where there is a justice system for the market economy, and rules and laws very similar to how it is in america, but that at the top there is a class of elites who are not voted in and not truly beholden to the public except the pitchfork public, and remove the lie of democracy i just described. I think it would once and for all unleash the collective energy of america to focus on real problems in their life. Real problems that overlap their circle of influence. Honestly i think thats important for everyone on a small scale, but just look at how much time america spends on their circle of concern, especially when it lies outside of their ability to influence it

america has become somewhat of a corporatocracy at this point, in my view

a bit, but more so just dysfunctional

yea i'd agree

because of the election cycle, politicians cannot do long term planning

they can never make tough decisions that are unpopular

the "occams razor" of politics is: Is this popular? Will it get me elected?

How many important decisions overlap with such thinking?

that's a fair point. i wouldn't be against a wider election interval i guess, just to give officials more time to carry out their policies

but i don't think authoritarianism would solve it

give it to them for life, and then give it to their first son

lol

and voila, hereditary representative constitutional republic

is it really representative though?

in the old days if a regions representative was being a douche, the citizens got their pitchforks and worked out arrangements with someone new

the ultimate vote, if you will

I'd imagine doing that gradually, the peasants would vy for more and more suffrage

Personally I'm an absolutist, so I think anytime you frame meaning and power as derivatived from the individual, you will lack any basis other than utilitarian ones for which gradient between anarchy and monarchy one should stop at. Any democratic system necessarily implies that, and over time under those ethics, suffrage has increased more and more, as withholding it has no real moral basis.

oh absolutely, i guess the point i was making is that even rome had its praetorian guard to murder the emperor when he was being a douche

but yeah, more and more ive been noticing how lacking democracy is for a country. Pits individual against individual. No clear societal goal other than make money for oneself. Just kind of a sad system when you look at outcome

i mean

look how dysfunctional, objectively, america is right now. You had one dude (obama) who came to the stage and says that everything america had been doing is wrong, and now we are doing something else. 8 years later another dude comes along says yeah no that dude was wrong, now we do it differently. And on it goes every 4-8 years

doing something different