Message from i3utm in Subverse #debate


2018-07-14 19:46:50 UTC  

so i can live in your yard?

2018-07-14 19:46:57 UTC  

^

2018-07-14 19:48:06 UTC  

That statement implies that you already have an agreement with me beforehand.

2018-07-14 19:48:39 UTC  

Which means i define what is your land

2018-07-14 19:48:59 UTC  

Because without my agreement, you don't really have private property, nor do I

2018-07-14 19:49:06 UTC  

Then the Goverment can decide what land they can define. It's a slippery slope.

2018-07-14 19:49:28 UTC  

And then they can use Eniment Domain to destroy your property to build a wall.

2018-07-14 19:49:44 UTC  

Who are "they"

2018-07-14 19:49:55 UTC  

Government is made up of people.

2018-07-14 19:49:59 UTC  

They == State or Federal Goverment entities.

2018-07-14 19:50:02 UTC  

It's people who come and take your land

2018-07-14 19:50:18 UTC  

The government does not exist as some faceless, nameless entity.

2018-07-14 19:50:35 UTC  

It's a group of people society gives power to.

2018-07-14 19:50:45 UTC  

Ask those pople who have no more land in some of the Border States that question.

2018-07-14 19:51:15 UTC  

Tell me, how does the government take your land without people?

2018-07-14 19:51:40 UTC  

Without an armed force, how do they have power?

2018-07-14 19:52:00 UTC  

They don't. And that is what I want limited. Limited Goverment power.

2018-07-14 19:52:44 UTC  

But this has diverged from the original point. If I don't follow our agreement, who enacts punishment?

2018-07-14 19:53:33 UTC  

A 3rd party voluntarily arbirter.

2018-07-14 19:54:27 UTC  

If you leave your house, who kicks me out if I move in?

2018-07-14 19:55:49 UTC  

I do as I will be defendin my property.

2018-07-14 19:56:10 UTC  

No, at that point you are taking my property

2018-07-14 19:56:28 UTC  

I have physical control over it

2018-07-14 19:56:29 UTC  

So, I will kick you out as I made that claim beforehand.

2018-07-14 19:56:43 UTC  

So you are defining my property?

2018-07-14 19:56:51 UTC  

Yes, as you defined mine.

2018-07-14 19:57:17 UTC  

Then we are in agreement, I define your property. And the reverse is true

2018-07-14 19:57:29 UTC  

In other words, our property is defined by those around us

2018-07-14 19:57:44 UTC  

But not by us

2018-07-14 19:58:29 UTC  

Our property is the whole world until someone stops us from claiming it.

2018-07-14 19:59:07 UTC  

Who defines property as "ours?"

2018-07-14 20:01:24 UTC  

the social contract we have in in a society that enforces that right through force

2018-07-14 20:02:49 UTC  

Our as in yours or mine.

2018-07-14 20:03:14 UTC  

The whole world is mine until you stop me. And the whole world is yours until I stop you.

2018-07-14 20:03:51 UTC  

This eventually means that the person who defines property is the one who is the strongest

2018-07-14 20:04:10 UTC  

Everyone else subject to their will. Or team up.

2018-07-14 20:04:24 UTC  

But what happens when people team up against you?

2018-07-14 20:04:55 UTC  

What makes this any different than government defining what my property is?

2018-07-14 20:07:24 UTC  

You can't have a stateless government and private property because the whoever ends up being the strongest becomes the new "government", or whoever teams up and gets the most support

2018-07-14 20:12:45 UTC  

Defending private property is one of the core reasons governments exist. Who's property depends on the government.

2018-07-14 22:53:20 UTC  

This is where I think you @Grenade123 are missing one point, and @i3utm is failing to put into perspective properly. I am not trying to being rude. just an observation, if I misunderstood something or potentially missed an important point. let me know. There is this concept called the Non Aggression Principle (NAP) What this means is that one person is not to violate someone else's agency via violce. The implication of a stateless society, from my understanding, is in order for this to work, society as a whole must abide by the NAP. Should there be an issue where one person is trying to claim land, that another person owns or is claiming to own, then a third party, mutually agreed upon by the arguing parties will come in and settle the dispute. But should this be a case where it is some jack-waggon coming to just steal your stuff, then a person must have the right to defend themselves and their property via some sort of weapon, which I would assume to be some sort of Gun.