Sacrifice is not binary

Elaborate

I would go back to what I read about the fundament reason for religion. I serves three purposes: 1) to answer the great questions (Creation, Life, Death, Ect...) 2) to imprint Morals on individuals in support of the community Ethics (Do not steal, murder, ect) and 3) Provided comfort and guidance for people in tough times.

The expectation is not that you just kill yourself out of convenience for someone else

The idea is to form a rational version, not unlike rational self interest

The difference is that the focal point is not the individual, which is, I think, a key flaw

That is the logical extreme and also the lesser versions people giving up a higher value for a lower or none at all will lead to death

@Khanclansith you missed the biggest part: Bring people together, form communities.

You don't have to give up a higher value

Than it is not a sacrifice

@Stefan Payne all three of those points help to do that, so it is an en-total point. But yes I agree it does help build communities and keep them together.

Well let's be clear here, when you say higher value, I read that as a Value
If we're talking about the value of a good or service, the argument is that it is given up for a larger payoff basically

Thats not what altruism is though

Exactly. Well, except for some crappy world domination Ideologys...

It paints man as a sacrificial animal

@Khanclansith I would argue that it has done a poor job on multiple fronts though, depending on where you're looking

@Existence is identity so sayeth Rand. If you were going to convince an Altruist, is that the tactic you would use?

You read atlas shrugged correct?

I did, yes

That is not an exaggeration of the altruism present today

Also what do you mean by convince a altruist

Well presumably if you want your ideology to be dominant you would have to convince those who disagree, no?

@Beemann I wouldn't say it is perfect. In some respects Greek and Nordic Pagamism are better at answering some tought questions. "Why do natural disasters happen?" "Because the gods are dicks and when they fight we get fucked over."

Sure I guess

By painting altruism as sacrificial axiomatically you bar yourself from progress

I mostly debate just to pass time

Im not gonna be dishonest and hide the logical extremes of the ideology

@Khanclansith and yet when the actual answer comes out, people are unprepared

@Existence is identity shouldn't you be pursuing your highest ideals?

Yes but im forced to go to school and when I finish my work I go pass the time

Im still in highschool

Ah

Its not like I dont enjoy talking also

@Khanclansith when it turns out that natural phenomena cause natural disasters and not a God, what solace do people take?

The excuse-making must begin or the whole narrative begins to fall apart

In what way?

Religious texts give specific explanations when they describe natural phenomena and people operate based on trust. The more the holy book is disproven on various claims, the less credible it will look overall, and the more aggressive the denials must be for those determined to accept it as a complete work. When this is also the basis for morality and community, what do you do?

@Beemann If you believe that the whole world is on a turtle and when the turtle gets a cramp it shakes and that causes earthquakes... saying that that is insane is ignoring what little we really know about the center of the earth and many lessons are inherently taught in parable fashion anyways

You are evidently not a literalist. They still exist

Further the number of people who accept God-as-parable is still not that high. We've ultimately got a gradient somewhere between, to use Christianity; Jesus was a real cool dude and God's son, and everything was real

I have meet literalists and non literalist religious people. I dealt with a lass that prayed to the Earth Turtle herself, not so much because she thought it was real but it gave her guidance on a spiritual level.