Message from @Bookworm

Discord ID: 536400826709704715


2019-01-20 04:17:57 UTC  

In many circumstances, financial transactions themselves should be forced in my opinion. It really depends on the reason the seller wants to not engage in a simple financial transaction.

2019-01-20 04:18:17 UTC  

Custom services no, but in many situations financial transactions yes.

2019-01-20 04:18:44 UTC  

If you want to deny someone a financial transaction, it would need to be something to do with their actions

2019-01-20 04:19:04 UTC  

Okay, but you haven't claimed to be a libertarian, so it's still possible that your positions are internally consistent.

2019-01-20 04:19:04 UTC  

Like not wearing a clothes in public and wanting to buy shit at a Walmart.

2019-01-20 04:19:21 UTC  

Yeah I'm not an ancap. I think states are useful for some things

2019-01-20 04:19:40 UTC  

Conflating libertarians with ancaps is disingenuous.

2019-01-20 04:19:48 UTC  

No, when you provide a service you must provide it farily and to all

2019-01-20 04:20:29 UTC  

If the request breaks the law then the vendor/creator should not do it

2019-01-20 04:22:16 UTC  

But in this case it would make sense that the service to provide custom to order cakes would fall under the same limitations

2019-01-20 04:22:48 UTC  

Why must I provide a service to everyone when I provide a service to anyone?

2019-01-20 04:23:10 UTC  

Depends on the service. Restaurants shouldn't be able to refuse to give someone pasta unless they violate some kind of rule. But custom services that express a message should be able to be rejected if the message that is being asked that the servicer expresses is something they don't want to do.

2019-01-20 04:23:33 UTC  

Provide it to those whom you are able to so long as you have no resource limitations or time restrictions

2019-01-20 04:23:58 UTC  

If the bakery bakes people blue cakes on demand, they shouldn't be able to refuse, but if the bakery bakes people custom cakes, then they should be able to reject

2019-01-20 04:24:00 UTC  

Because otherwise people would be able to deny service based on arbitrary measures such as political orientation

2019-01-20 04:24:16 UTC  

Didnt vote democrat? no twitter account for you

2019-01-20 04:24:21 UTC  

So, then, I can refuse to sell someone a burger if I argue that my actions during that exchange constitute artistic expression?

2019-01-20 04:24:49 UTC  

No. There is no overt message in a burger.

2019-01-20 04:25:06 UTC  

The margins for "expressive services" should be very narrow

2019-01-20 04:25:11 UTC  

Ah, but there is a message in my actions during the process of selling a burger.

2019-01-20 04:25:22 UTC  

So only certain *kinds* of expressions are protected.

2019-01-20 04:25:51 UTC  

in business all transactions carry some sort of message

2019-01-20 04:26:17 UTC  

Some expressions should be protected, but others should be policed.

2019-01-20 04:26:22 UTC  

There is no message in selling a burger that is unique. Any message that is being seen in selling a burger is the same as any other sale in the vacuum of ignoring who is buying.

2019-01-20 04:26:33 UTC  

Ah, so only unique messages are protected?

2019-01-20 04:26:59 UTC  

A unique expression inherent in the sale of a custom service.

2019-01-20 04:27:03 UTC  

Repeatable or generic artistic expression can be forced to be provided.

2019-01-20 04:27:07 UTC  

Generally ill draw the line at luxury goods

2019-01-20 04:27:25 UTC  

If you can't see any difference in the product from person to person then it is not expressing anything distinct

2019-01-20 04:27:55 UTC  

And yet porn is still protected under free speech laws.

2019-01-20 04:28:01 UTC  

There is no justice.

2019-01-20 04:28:24 UTC  

The seller of a burger has already agreed to "express" their sale of a burger. A custom cake baker did not consent to the expression of nazi propaganda if someone asks for that kind of cake.

2019-01-20 04:29:23 UTC  

Actually nix that luxury goods line

2019-01-20 04:29:31 UTC  

The issue is that the seller is has not previously consented to express all messages that may come from a custom cake request, but a seller of a burger has consented to the singular expression of the sale of a burger.

2019-01-20 04:30:20 UTC  

The main issue with protecting artistic expression is that the lines are far too gray with it

2019-01-20 04:31:52 UTC  

So, what if someone only agrees to sell to the people they feel like?

2019-01-20 04:32:12 UTC  

Would that not be an acceptable contract?

2019-01-20 04:32:48 UTC  

Then were back at denying requests based on political alignment

2019-01-20 04:33:18 UTC  

No, cause the delineation of why they are selling to some people has to be based on the product itself

2019-01-20 04:33:27 UTC  

It's not about the expression being artistic in nature. It's about the established rules for what a seller has consented to sell. A black artist could be selling paintings of his dog and shouldn't be able to refuse selling to anyone. He has consented to the sale of paintings of his dog. If that same black artist says they will sell paintings of customers dogs, and a customer sends a picture of a dog with "I HATE NIGGERS" shaved into his back, he can refuse that service because he did not consent to painting that previously.

2019-01-20 04:33:40 UTC  

So it has nothing to do with agreement.