Welp. The state is a product of the market

Thats one thing answered

Only insofar as people see others accumulating wealth and want to parasite off of them without producing anything themselves, and they do so under the threat of violence

How is that the product of financial transaction?

Not financial transaction but financial institutions

Which is a product of transactions

the individual always falls to the well focused collective

Financial institutions such as?

@Arch-Fiend how do i not understand human nature? the person who produces enough to hire people to voluntarily produce for them ins't leeching off of anyone, or taking advantage, unless you're an actual marxist and believes in the theory of value, which has been thoroughly debunked

What is a financial institution?

If you're talking about banks those exist because of the state

but pazuzu every government in history was formed that way

Source?

human history

Banks exist because of people

Source? @Arch-Fiend

There were banks that formed absent actual government presense

The first banks weren't even state sponsored

if you dont care to listen to what someone has to say then you really dont need to be having a conversation with them

The modern banking system exists on the basis of fiat currency

Bank = i have money and i can lend you some, but you have to give me back every month by ??% increase.
also i wont give you more than i'm ready to loose on each person because i dont trust you and if you dont give me back i wont give you anymore and will tell other (banks) not to have business with you

I am reading what you are saying, I am also providing some counter points

I'm listening, but you're making a statement and I want a source for that statement. @Arch-Fiend The thing is that historically, ruling classes were not the merchant class, but rather, the warrior class.

If you need sources for whatever I'm saying, please ask and I'll gladly provide

When i say financial instutitions, i dont mean buildings but rather contracts between people to work for goods or alot trading that one individual alone coulsnt possibly produce

Like 2 people trading with 2 other people

You don't need the state for that

Yeah no state is needed for normal financial exchange

It isn't until the second half of the 19th century that the merchants effectively took over as the leading class in society. Samura to Zibatsu (Spelling?) in Japan,

Or any financial exchange, even for shit like law

People just want it to regulate existing modes of transaction

AskTheRisk i dont know how about your country but in my country some company avoid % you have to pay government by directly selling product to the costumer without company involvement

it doest take cuts if you directly sell to another person but when you start business than government comes in play

Isn't that what the black market ends up being, ultimately?

Not all black markets are bad but they get ugly fast

They get ugly fast because they end up in war with the government

Also because they're a good method of offloading goods gained via non monopolized coercion

pazuzu as you put it, the person who produces enough to hire people to voluntarily produce for them isn't leeching off anyone or taking advantage. thats true, and his children will inherit that system and wealth that he had of hiring people to work for him. but he might exapand his business into something more than agroculture, something like civil protection, metal industrys, and then perhaps an industry that serves both such as weapon manufacturing. and now once he is hiring people to create food, extract metals, create tools, and protect everyone doing the following he could hire and overproduction of people who protect everyone who has all the tools of protection from the tool creators to make war on other people doing the same thing as him in a form of forced consolidation of wealth

its not black market tho

its like, i want something, you buy something but i have not official company

technicly in human history this occured before metal production, it was stone to begin with