to me, it means if you break a law, you receive the consequence, and that's non-negotiable. that part I agree with.

What is a law?

a law is a rule created by government that has consequences for non-compliance

Kind of, what is the point of the government?

Government is too broad.

What is the set goal of OUR government?

to act as arbiters and caretakers of negotiations that cannot be resolved privately, to defend our society from external and internal dangers, and to ensure safe facilitation of negotiation.

They're doing that in service of the people correct, "We the people" not we the government, right?

yes, that is correct.

So we (the united states historically) elected people to service our best interests as we saw fit at the time correct?

yes, they did

We did, not they.

You are a part of the we.

but I didn't take part in any of that, historically, I wasn't there

that's what I'm saying

It doesn't matter.

You are still part of the we.

why not?

why doesn't it matter that I don't agree and I think that the agreement made without my existence or consent is ill fitting?

Because that's what laws are, ill fitting compromises. There is no law that will ever fit the circumstance of everyone in a society.

they may be ill fitting compromises, but that doesn't mean that all levels of ill fitting are equal

I think that there is a better system

Okay, well here are your options. You can accept that this is the way things are. You can choose to live outside the bounds of the law. You can collect enough power to force those who disagree with you to accept your changes.

and that's what I'm doing, through discussion of my proposed changes. You don't agree with me, and that's fine, you have a right to think what you want. I'm not saying laws are all dumb and should be made void the moment it detriments a single person. I know that law is important, I know that taxes are necessary for the functioning of the government. I just think that my system would be simpler and more agreeable and less plagued with issues and loopholes, and I'm sharing that with other people.

But you said yourself there are built in loopholes "secondary markets".

I don't see that as a loophole, I see that as a benefit to those who can't afford to pay taxes because they don't make enough money to subsist. it gives more power to the money of those who need it. Will it be used and possibly abused by some smart people who find out they can live totally off the grid tax-wise? sure, but that's not any different than what we have now, and those who do that pay for it in the quality of goods they can buy

even if you do see it as a loophole, it's one single loophole that can be easily pointed to and understood, not 15 different ones based on where you choose to bank, how much money you make, and how much of your savings you're investing into companies and stuff.

I think that's more just

keep in mind that secondary markets can't exist for services, either

It's one loophole we see now. What if I submit almost no tax for my state, for example Oregon has no sales tax. How are the roads in my state going to be paid for, or are those people who live on the boarder going to get a free pass.

What if it's the richest 1% that are able to move there and so they get the benefit of the low taxes of one state and the safety net of mine?

Ok, I'll admit that these are things I haven't thought of, and that's what this discussion is for. (Offhand speculation incoming)

I don't think that a separation of federal and state taxes are a great thing, personally, though I don't have much info on the implications of federal distribution to states. My idea of this system has been mostly federal, with states allowed to impose their own systems on top (not ideal, but possibly necessary). I'd have to do more research on that and get back to you, because I honestly don't know

Most taxes are collected from the people in the states not from the federal government.

Cities, counties, and states.

Sales Tax, Prosperity Tax, and Income tax are all collected by states.

The fed only collects income tax, and some specialized sales taxes like Tabaco.

Ok then, ty. I'm glad we're still willing to have discussion, btw, most people by now either get tired of talking about politics and economics, or don't have as much useful input to the discussion

We're in <#509549100061163520>

I don't think they'd be in here if the tired of it.

Or was that a general comment?