**OT**
God: I am the first and the last

**NT**
Jesus: I am the first and the last

Yes!

There is one God!

The Trinity teaching is one God

No, the Trinity means three persons

But one divine being

So three persons, one God.

John 20:28

**John 20:28 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<28> Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" ```

Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and **his God**

Something like that

And he also calls him his God!

John 20:28-30

**John 20:28-30 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust
The Purpose of This Book

<28> Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" <29> Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."<30> Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. ```

If Jesus was not God, he would've corrected Thomas's apparent blasphemy!

Also notice this

Exodus 3:14

**Exodus 3:14 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<14> God said to Moses, "I am who I am." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'" ```

John 8:58

**John 8:58 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<58> Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." ```

**OT**
God identifies himself as "I AM"

**NT**
Jesus speaks of his prehuman existence, and instead of using the past tense, uses the PRESENT tense divine name "I AM"

Acts 20:28

**Acts 20:28 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<28> Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. ```

Revelation 1:5-6

**Revelation 1:5-6 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<5> and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, <6> and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. ```

Acts: God purchased us with his blood, Revelation: Jesus purchased us with his blood

John 1:1-3

**John 1:1-3 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust
The Word Became Flesh

<1> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. <2> He was in the beginning with God. <3> All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being ```

1:1 The Logos (Jesus) is God
1:2 Jesus was here from the beginning
1:3 Jesus created all things

Luke 2:11

**Luke 2:11 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<11> to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord. ```

Jesus is the Savior

Isaiah 43:11

**Isaiah 43:11 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<11> I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. ```

God says there is no other savior besides himself in the OT

But somehow Jesus is the savior!

Crazy bro

No.

The Bible makes a distinction between Jesus and the angels in Hebrews

Hebrews 1:8

**Hebrews 1:8 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<8> But of the Son he says,"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. ```

The Father calls Jesus God

@Lee No. That is the heretical Jehovah Witness belief.

Are you by chance a Jehovah Witness?

You seem to be one

no God the Son was always God

Alright

@Lee I will screenshare chat you in like five minutes

the Son pre-existed creation

and show in your own bible

eternally begotten from the Father

how jesus is god

@Lee why does the JW Bible translate John 8:58

**John 8:58 - New King James Version (NKJV)**

```Dust


<58> Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."```

differently

no the angels were created along with the rest of the universe

they were created before us but they are created beings

anyway JW Bible isn't a good translation

it translate that passage as "I have been" instead of "I am"

despite the greek word being present tense

I don't think it ever says exactly when he was created but the Bible talks about the morning stars singing together for joy

Job 38:6-7

**Job 38:6-7 - New King James Version (NKJV)**

```Dust


<6> To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, <7> When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? ```

this is during the creation of the earth

so they pre-dated earth but they are still created beings

I don't want to say exactly when because I don't believe there's any teaching on that

it's just a comparison you don't need to take it literally

satan's not literally the morning star

Heads up, y'all better check /pol/. We got suspicions on Ford being Amy Schumer. Not kidding http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/187281550

@Sandbag just another shitty conspiracy theory

they have found nothing of value in any of the threads

Jesus is God epic style @Lee

aAAAAA

Well I just found this video interesting. https://youtu.be/CuhLRzP2-0Y

Man was never made to be free

In any sense

biblical or logically

Sounds kind of authoritarian.

Anyway I have to admit yesterday did not go well. Because repbuclicans didn't play the evidence card like we should have.

Hola @Krass

@Krass come here

talk here instead

@Krass

You’ve so far not had any original arguments

All just issues you dislike about God, you have no say in what is Moral to do off God’s judgement

He created morality

Jesus came in life and died for everyone

He saved us at that point

So you’re basically Hillary Clinton?

Being against gay marriage whenever it’s popular

So why would you only like Christians?

What values do you like specially

You complained that Islamists can rape and do terror but only get deported

Sounds like the punishment wasn’t enough for you?

The Bible is quite big, you should be able to cite individual verses to each issue you refer to @Krass

Otherwise you shouldn’t really talk about them to begin with

Problem of suffering?

@Krass So you’re saying you’re purposely repeating what someone else told you?

>assuming there’s pointless suffering to begin with

You can know a lot about Christianity but how you present it can be different

I am saying you are following someone else, you are a follower

You are a follower

@Krass You are following one individual who has studied Christianity, this would be a better convo if you knew some of your claims and seen it for yourself

I don’t even know who you learnt from

Was it a priest?

What’s not true?

@Krass Remove your Orthodox Christianity role please

Dude you’re right here using roles to present yourself as Christian but you’re claiming God is not real.

But why do you claim to be Orthodox when you don’t believe in God?

You’re white correct?

A big chunk of Europeans are atheists

It’s first world countries that have the most atheists I would believe

Except China

Yeah, western Europe has a lot of atheists

And parts of Eastern Europe

I don’t think it’s serving the countries well

Eastern european atheists lmao

You’re Romanian @Memel 🎃

The only country that I know is atheistic and is borderline east is the Czech Republic

yeah

You should know

we're very religious

like well above 90%

Again it depends on where in Eastern Europe you are @Memel 🎃

well im geographically not eastern european

Romania may be quite Christian

but the amerimutts think i am so i'll go with that

Czechia is very much not Christian

Romania is Central European

yes

Poland is quite Christian

the Czech Republic is a degenerate country

prostitution, sex, atheism

Also when I say eastern Europe I mean the former Commie block

but that's a political division

not a geographic one

It is geographical as well

not really

There is a Europe that is more western

Germany is right in the middle

Italy is also right in the middle but south

yeah but like

Norway is right in the middle but north

Greece wouldn't be eastern european

it was a part of the commie block for a short period of time

it wouldnt make sense

Well I am not interested in this debate

Let me rephrase

im glad we could end this good sire

The former Eastern block is either very Religious or atheist

surprisingly yes

Poland is very Religious, Czechia is very much not so

Why?

marry women

you mean marry a woman

Why do you wish to marry someone and walk away from them

^

stop being a polygamic fuck

I doubt he mean’t thag

That

or even divorce

I mean why would you be an atheist and manipulate a Religious woman

You convince someone else that you are devoutly Christian in order to marry them when you aren’t really

Why do you wish to do that? @Krass

So you wish to keep a marriage based on lies

Why

So you wish to manipulate someone?

<@141430331717844992> Well if devoutly Religious enough she wouldn’t divorce

But probably feel deeply manipulated off that

@Krass Why do you wish for this?

Wrong answer

@Ideology Hey look at this guy

@Order Hey how about you

My my

Manipulation is Devilish

You are enslaving a person to follow your will and demands, and essentially lead them away from God to serve you. Anything against God is towards the "self", and follows the attitude of the demons of Hell

Morality is defined by God and violations of the moral commandments declared by God can be punished by God in accordance to His will. As I have stated before, the old covenant was rigid and harsh in order to establish God's people and make them distinct from the rest of the world. In essence, it assured loyalty unto God. Jesus is not different in character from Yahweh because they are the same. They are God. When Jesus was incarnated in the flesh, he enacted the plan of God of mercy and the salvation of the gentiles. In the Old Testament, through the prophets, he established the laws and punishments for those laws. On the day of judgement, Jesus, being the God the Son, will testify to God the Father, of men in accordance to what they have done. If one has known Jesus and has followed him, mercy and glory shall be upon Him. If not, he will be cast out and into Gehenna for violation of God's commandments.

I really don't see any inconsistency

Morality is invariant, but how violations of those morals and turning to sin are dealt with in accordance to the established covenants. We draw principle from the Old Testament. We know the Adultery is a sin because God has declared it so. However, it is no longer sin to eat pork because we are under the new covenant.

@Thule-Gesellschaft [☩] The morality does not change, but the laws do in accordance to the need. If we follow the logic that Yahweh was not God and was instead something demonic than all that followed Yahweh's commandments are damned to Hell. There would be no salvation for those of the Old Testament faith.

Without the laws of the Old Testament, the New Testmanent has no substance or weight. There is no reason to follow the New Testament without the Old.

The prophecies give Christ the legitimacy to defy the Pharisees and to heal those afflicted by Demons on the Sabbath. I'd say that Moral Truths are what are in accordance to the will of God and are reflected throughout the teachings of the Prophets, Saints, Apostles, and Christ Himself. If your philosophy is wrong, which was the case of the Roman Catholics when they tried to define God and put Him into the box, your ideas and your morality are wrong. And this goes for everything, if God is not involved in it and it isn't derived from God I'd say it hardly lacks substance

To be moral you must submit firstly to God and recognise the fact that humans, despite their great ability to reason, are incompabable of fully holding to truth and goodness.

It is dangerous to speak on matters you do not hold comprehension about. Just because your personal intuition tells you you shouldn't give charity and you use logic to reason that the poor man is undeserving of charity does not make you correct.

Living in accordance to God's will is what makes a man moral, not of what he personally thinks. However, men should know that they do not always have the ability to hold so closely to God and His morality, and that they are weak and fallible before him.

The whole point of human life is to honour God and give glory unto Him as his servants. Doing this does not necessarily come from developing philosophy and constantly debating, but following what God has taught you because you love God. Despite it may not being immediately apparent. John 20:29

**John 20:29 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<29> Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."```

So you're telling me that God was unjust?

@Thule-Gesellschaft [☩] That is what he said. If we deny that, which is part of the First Commandment of the 10, we may also deny the seventh which forbids adultery.

You don't get to decide what is cruel or unjust, it is what God desires. They were killed for their opposition against the Israelites and their horrid idol worship that was too much of a stain against God's people and was corrupting His people.

The difference is that I worship the one God and they do not.

It is loyalty to God

You don't get to pick and chose what parts of the Bible you like. You either accept it or you don't.

I say that morality is defined by God and if God defines it as moral it is moral and if it isn't it isn't. There's no room for discussion.

God had a reason for destroying those tribes, as they threatened His people. He was justified in what He had done.

Threatened his people by corrupting them.

They were sources of corruption threatening identity of the Israelites.

We do not know the reasonings for what God has done to some and what He has done to others. We have no reason to question Him or any justification in doing so, because we are made to be in His Image and to give Glory unto Him.

Timotheoes, why shouldn't we question God when he does not provide justification for his actions? Shouldn't we want to follow him if we know he is just?

I'm unable to believe something is justified simply because a higher authority has told me so.

Give me a moment, I'm formulating a response

You sir have my respect @Timotheos Komnenos

@Krass I pray for your marriage manipulation to end in failure

Psalm 143:10 Shows us that the will of man and the will of God are not the same. This means that man will view some seemingly inconsistent things being done through the Old Testament and the New Testament, but they are not inconsistent if we are to believe that God is of the 3 o's. There is a plan to all of which God does and all in which God teaches. The teaching changes in accordance with new revelation but the will of God remains eternal. It is likely that God willed for mercy when he established the Old Covenant but also willed that his people keep strictly to Him and what was required for this was punishment. Ultimately, what makes man just, is living in accordance to principles and having Faith in God. The New Testament takes priority over the Old because the Old Covenant has been fufilled with Christ and a new covenant of great mercy has been established. This do not mean that justice has gone away, but rather the manifestation of God's mercy reigns in this now time. But God tells us that this time is finite and that we must repent if we are to be shielded from the full unadultered punishment of hell and sin.

**Psalm 143:10 - New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)**

```Dust


<10> Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Let your good spirit lead me on a level path. ```

You aren't led to Truth, which is God, through your reasoning or from the World. What leads you to God is beginning first with God and then establishing everything else from there. If you have no foundation, a building cannot stand.

Just appeal to divine command theory to justify any of God’s actions, but if they contradict His commands... ouch

powerful

So God expressing punishment and anger is in contradiction to mercy?

So God is acting unjustly when he punishes and destroys those who worship Baal and sacrifice children that are corrupting His people?

Was the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah unjust?

Why can't he simply explain to them the problem and help them learn from their actions? That would be just.

Why is a child innocent? Why would you live a vengeful seed in the ground to rise as yet another threat to the Israelites?

@Thule-Gesellschaft [☩] Despite them interacting and trading with the Israelites and members of the Israelites coming to them and being among them?

Salvation during this time was for the Israelites, not for Philistines or the Unjust peoples.

Was King David an Israelite?

do you judge monarchs from 3000 years ago for fighting wars the way they did back then

You do know that Jesus is called the Son of David in his earthly form right? And that, through the geneology, was a biological Israelite.

So Christ is unjust and spread wickedness

God's plan is designed for humanity's salvation and for a human world

that God needed to allow war to be fought like that does not mean it's the moral way to fight wars

By your logic, he'd be of the corrupt and wicked seed as an Israelite.

it means that that was what had to happen for the plan

it's not tenuous to claim it's one of the most important foundations for him being the Christ

if Jesus isn't of that bloodline then He doesn't fulfill Old Testament prophecies

@agag He denies that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the new.

I know that

if Christ doesn't fulfill the Messiah prophecies then He's not the Messiah

The prophecies give legitamacy to Christ and establish Him as divine.

but if the prophecy isn't fulfilled then Christ is not who He claimed to be

and who his disciples claimed Him to be

faith in Jesus requires believing that He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies

and was the Messiah

You might as well ignore scripture then and develop your own idea on what Christ was outside of the people who actually spoke of Him and knew Him.

Christ is contingent on what inspired prophecies say the Christ would be like

sorry but that's not how it works

You cannot claim to follow Christ if you ignore what he taught.

the Church is needed for that

the Apostles were given the authority to teach the Gospel

no now you're projecting what you think about them

by what standard?

Complex temple rituals, religious calendar, mythology

I don't see them as any more primitive than their neighbors

So it is comparable to every other civilization

Correct

Yes ?

their mythology and calendar were no more primitive than their neighbors'

and neither was their temple worship

you're underestimating the major religious sectarianism in first century Judea

are you serious?