we have ppl here supporting the minimum wage?

hasn't that been debunked to death aleady?

"Think about it, having no minimum wage would not incentivize hiring Americans"
Perhaps not directly, but if it costs a couple dollars less, it's less of a disincentive.

"An American still looks to progression in their wage
An illegal, would work for the same small amount forever if they could"
Completely incorrect. Illegals look to increase their wages like everyone else. They just recognize that it's going to be harder to do it above the table. But make no mistake, an illegal alien will eagerly look to make more money. And not all Americans necessarily look for raises, some want less working hours.

"It would just lead to actual Americans seeing wages fall, and it wouldn't solve the illegal workers problem"
This is correct. Though I think you're oversimplifying. Most Americans would be unaffected. This is why many minimum wage hikes appear to have negligible effect--the equilibrium price for labor already cleared the price floor.

"It was illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage
We need to punish companies who hire illegal immigrants, and decentivize them in those feilds"
There's more to it than that. For example, you can still offshore labor. Do agree we shouldn't be encouraging companies to circumvent labor law by hiring illegal persons and they should be punished.

"But as it stands, lowering the minimum wage wont actually fix anything, and getting rid of it would just cause unnecessary civil unrest"
But raising it doesn't help either. As it stands, it might be inflating away with time, which can be the same effect without needing to go through the political process.

I'm not for the minimum wage

why should companies be allowed to hire illegal workers?

But hey, dont read what I wrote

Its fine

@Cody I'm not talking to you =p

WTF. I went line by line through what you wrote. @Cody

@.B I mean...It's Codes.

illegals workers can't be a problem if you punish companies that hire them

it's pretty simple actually

I was talking to belial

I was reading your things just now pratel

2 complaints, I never mentioned raising the minimum wage

"Grenade, you do not see it as a crime to intentionally hire someone who can not legally work?"

i do not have a problem with someone not invading someones personal life if they are willing to work, no.

@.B At the very least, it's a disincentive. It would cut down on economic migrants, but it wouldn't eliminate them. You'd still have people come over for welfare or unaware they'd struggle to find work.

And I want to decentivize companies hiring illegals

pot is illegal still, i don't report my neighbors to the police

So we punish them for doing so

you want to punish companies for doing things you do not like

"for the greater good"

Make that specific action a crime

without identifying why they do that in the first place.

@pratel if they are illegaly in the country, they can't apply to welfare

but they can go to the ER for free

CA.

@Grenade123 no, you punish companies for doing illegal stuff

companies have to follow the law

and i'm saying the laws are not good.

Why?

and that is the wrong way going about solving the issue because its not addressing the issue.

CA lets them in public ed, and still gives all sorts of stuff. Actually most of the cities in the border states do as well.

you can have all the opinions you want. But the fact is people and companies have to follow the law

Only if the law is enforced.

you can't say "I don't agree and I will continue to do what's illegal"

The issue is that companies are hiring illegals, minimum wage would not even be a problem if it was not for that

@.B i'm arguing for the laws to be changed

and to address the issue

No, but you can have sanctuary cities that basically say that they're going to circumvent the law on their own accord.

@Cody no, that is a symptom.

Of?

but the laws that are in place already fix the issue

^

a whole in the market that they are filling.

they clearly don't

illegals still get here, and they still get gired

they won't and can't hire illegals if they are punished for it

like it's expected by law

it's like refusing to pay taxes

you can advocate for it all you want

but the IRS will be on your ass

let me give you an example....

Belial is right on this one, it goes unpunished so companies keep doing it

Assuming the IRS ever finds out or that the IRS really cares to go after the company for anything besides back taxes.

In Japan, if you are illegal, you can't have a phone number, a house, or a bank account

Punish the employers and you will see a steady decline in illegals in the work force

so in Japan it's impossible to work illegaly, for long, at least

Then you can start to lower minimum wage

citizens or companies that pay them can also get fined or arrested

But not outright abolish it, atleast until later

Even if minimum wage didn't exist, companies would still hire an illegal over an American

You must punish this action

As there is intent, I mean let's look at your reasoning @Grenade123

I see my wife cheating, and kill the guy in rage

I had a REASON to do so

minimum wage isn't even related to the issue

But it is still punishable

Wow, me and belial agree completely

Kinda funny actually

I don't even get how the US lets illegals work

the IRS has enough info to punish all the companies that do it

Cause, people cry "FREE MARKET"

Regulations are needed

Atleast some

I would cry free market too, if that meant I could not pay taxes

Mutually agreed "we're not going to enforce this" @.B

@Cody why are they hiring an illegal over an american

you assume its because they are cheaper.

For many reasons, it's cheaper for one

but are they competing with Americans for that job, or other illegals?

But there are many others

in europe illegal workers are treated like it is slavery

and it kinda is

because the workers can even not get paid, and they have no way to complain

if there are no Americans willing to work that job for what is required to pay in order for the company to be profitable, then all we do is force these companies under.

Because they shouldnt be there in the first place @.B

not many americans want to work on a farm.

and the price they would ask would put the farm out of business

@Sarche the problem solves itself if they can't earn a salary

of course, in the case of farms, that just encourages automation

@Grenade123 they're not willing to work those jobs, because those wages have been supressed, from countless waves of illegal immigrants

have they?

Yeah

Yes

or is it because farming is "beneath them"

If you need food, you will work it

also, those jobs are typically fighting subsidized corporate farms.

@Grenade123 people work in literal shit as their technical profession

which have automation