Message from @Koninos
Discord ID: 686636442188906508
@Sentient23 Yes, perhaps some conclusions of moral relativism are more incoherent or ambiguous for most people, since it's not easy for everyone to understand it. It's not as clear as moral objectivism, which simply assumes the existence of a higher being along with the existence of its rules and teachings.
Since if the foundation, or the reference point is arbitrary, and equally arbitrary to mine reference point, then all morals would be equal, since the reference point/axiom is picked arbitrarily
@valencia/Vaida Following your moral code.
> @OrthoGoat If you don't want to read or partake in a conversation like this, then do not make initial unjustified, out-of-context, irrelevant statements.
> Again, you must not insert a higher being into the subjectivity of the moral code, for the reasons I listed in my first message.
@Koninos I read your message
Its not about not understanding. its about actually understanding, and then deriving the logical consequence of moral relativism
Which leads to absurdity
How does it lead to absurdity?
> Since if the foundation, or the reference point is arbitrary, and equally arbitrary to mine reference point, then all morals would be equal, since the reference point/axiom is picked arbitrarily
That doesn't justify why moral subjectivism leads to absurd conclusions.
It actually does? Its pretty absurd that x and the antithesis of X are equally right
It's not X and the antithesis of X. It's about the X which is approximately the same as Y, being equally right with the anthesis of Y which is approximately the same as the antithesis of X.
Would you like to name your Xs though, in order to understand what you speak of?
The distinction you provided not only makes no sense, but is useless. I'm not talking about propositions which are approximately same/similar. I'm talking about inherently incompatible moral propositions. I.e if X was true, it would entail the falsity of the antithesis of X
X and Y would be literally any incompatible moral proposition
@Sentient23 Name your X, give me an example. Give me an example of a moral.
Any moral.
I don't see how its necessary
But alright. "transgenderism is inherently wrong" - X
"transgenderism is inherently right" - Y
Thank you, I just needed to further understand your position in order to respond to you in my best way possible.
Okay so basically what you're saying is that a moral, it being transgenderism being inherently wrong, cannot be equal to its antithesis, it being transgenderism being inherently right. I do understand your confusion, so I'll try to make the position of moral relativism as clear as possible.
To understand why X, and the antithesis of X(=Y) are equal, you must assume the following:
a) That a higher being's existence is unknown, and not brought into the conversation, to justify the objectivism of X and Y.
b) That different people, cultures, religions, have different moral standards; I believe that you agree with this one.
With the assumption of A and B, we make a draft conclusion: That X and Y depend on the people, their cultures and their religions. Therefore, without a universal, objective moral code, which 99.99% of the times is justified through the existence of a higher being along with its rules and teachings, both X and Y depend on the people, their cultures and their religions. Hence, if you get a person of a certain moral code, who believes that X is true, and then you get another person, of another certain moral code, who claims that Y is true, both, according to their personalities/cultures/religions(/or whatever has defined their moral code) are telling their own truth. The conclusion being, that these truths are equal.
Yes
That's what i said
Yes?
That's what I said?
Oh okay lmao, I apologise, I thought you disagreed with that.
@Koninos got a question for you
what do you think about muh democracy is bad because people are stupid and its also an illusion and doesnt work
Oof.
talking about a more direct philosophy
that isnt scientific analysis at all
he literally wrote in the text people are too stupid for democracy
Who?
read something from schumpeter
thats his name
hes a jewish philosopher born in like 1900 or something
was*
Ooh
> what do you think about muh democracy is bad because people are stupid and its also an illusion and doesnt work
@Ater Votum
Well, personally I believe that the way democracy currently operates is a very stupid way indeed. In order for democracy to work, you need the vast majority of the masses to be well-educated, which is not happening right now. Although I am a fanatical fan of Democracy, I do realize that there are some serious drawbacks that come with it, but no ideology is flawless, and in my opinion, democracy is the system with the fewer flaws. Now, regarding the statement you posted, I'll break it up to three sections: A) the "people are stupid," the B) it's an illusion and the C) it doesn't work. Before I go in depth for all three of them, I have to mention that all these three statements are wrong.
A) The people are stupid only if you let them be stupid. No living person has ever wanted to be stupid. But even if we suppose that the people are stupid, then they must be educated. In my opinion, objective education which mentions subjective positions yet doesn't support any is the best kind of education. Also the educational system must explain how Democracy works and how it's vital. Well-educated people means smarter people. Yet, the majority of the people nowadays are smart enough to make smart decisions, in most countries. Educational reformation is necessary in all cases, however. Claiming that the people -nowadays at least- are all stupid, is no valid statement, but a mere hypothesis, which can never be true. The spirit of the people, through democracy, is let free, and therefore it's easier for stupid people to become smarter, than in living in an Authoritarian system. Authoritarian systems above well-educated and smart people can't exist, due to the brain capacity of the people to understand that Democracy > Authoritarianism.
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B) This statement is true when it concerns Representative Democracy, and not Direct Democracy. In Representative Democracy, you truly live in an illusion, because you're simply not living in a Democratic system, but an Authoritarian one. I believe that's what people refer to when they claim that Democracy is an illusion - to Representative Democracy, which is the modern form of democracy unfortunately. And to be honest, I agree with the fact that Representative Democracy is nothing but a mere illusion.
C) I don't get how people are even capable of making such irrational statement. No but really, even Representative Democracy can work, which is proven through the very existence of modern "democratic" states of the West, like the USA, the UK, France, etc etc. In the Antiquity, in Ancient Athens, no matter how back in time that was, Direct Democracy also worked, and it worked so effectively, that it made Athens the ruler of the Greek world. So yeah, it can work, and it can actually work better than any other system.
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My response wasn't completely Philosophic, I must admit, but Democracy itself, in my opinion and the opinion of many other Philosophers, is a great philosophical issue, rather than a political or an economic one.
very nicely said