I don't intend to bring someone else into this world, it's a beautiful place but it's also incredibly fucked up.

We are natural, bike.

Even when we're being absolute fuckers, we're nature.

^

All of this is natural, it's just a different part of nature than we expected.

Well, we have romanticized "nature"

Gotta stop doing that.

^

There is no treaty between the wolf tribe and the deer tribe to pay homage to the wolf tribe but only up to a natural balance.

so what's the meaning of this chat if we don't reproduce, why are we here? to chat and die?

It's a straight up war. The reward is you live and your children live. You lose, your reward is a selection of ugly deaths: thirst, starvation, or violence, usually.

Well, for the most part, HHH has taken an "enjoy the decline" approach and lot of the guys here agree.

I take a "make up your purpsoe" approach.

I have a list of goals that I want to achieve, that's my goal in life, to achieve those goals.

That's my version of self-actualization as far as I'm concerned.

the decline approach is depressing, but i too am on it...

I'm not.

What do you mean by "decline"?

The slow motion implosion of western civilization

I see hmmm

mgtow forever is to give up....

No.

It's to self-actualize.

mgtow until change is smart

Good news. It's actually to make your own choices.

The community may laugh at you and disparage you, but family and reproduction and maybe even women can have some place on your priorities list.

yea, ok, mgtow monk is nice for awhile, but not forever

Congrats on having an opinion.

Many agree with you.

That sounds far more condescending than I intended.

@Bike that is true that it means giving up on several things which could be defined as "normal things" nowaday (relationships, children, marriage etc ...) but is giving up on these things necessarily a bad decision?

Arguably, do you have to give up anything other than marriage?

children are available through surrogacy and family will probably breed in one way or another.

The problem is women and the laws surrounding them.

if we give up on "marriage" it's a Brave new world, with artificial born kids, in the authority of the government

Well, we don't need to give the authority to government.

Surrogacy is modern test tube babies.

Artificial kids, maybe, but it's not worth cohabiting with a crazy

You take a pack of purchased eggs, try to fertilize them, contract some other woman to carry the child to term. You, as a man, are sole guardian and custodian of the child/children that result.

Bam, you have child and family.

And it's cheaper in the long run, you just have to have the money up front.