Message from Nemets in Literature Club #tir


2018-12-29 02:14:38 UTC  

I'm enjoying it, but it is pretty academic

2018-12-29 02:15:13 UTC  

Ok with academic, that can be written in a way to keep you reading imo.

2018-12-29 02:16:27 UTC  

I'm very inexperienced with Russia, does it get into what it means to be Russian wrt ethnicity?

2018-12-29 02:16:55 UTC  

I'm only 7% into it so far - but a lot of it is past the arrival of ryurik

2018-12-29 02:17:20 UTC  

I don't know if ethnic conflict was later, obviously soviet era

2018-12-29 02:17:33 UTC  

was a big deal

2018-12-29 02:17:43 UTC  

oh, ok.

2018-12-29 02:18:50 UTC  

I've always been curious about the history of the various groups that fell under Russian influence

2018-12-29 02:19:25 UTC  

how those groups formed, how they interacted with Russian influence and power, etc.

2018-12-29 02:19:37 UTC  

Ryurik?

2018-12-29 02:19:48 UTC  

Viking?

2018-12-29 02:20:28 UTC  

he was a viking of finnish background that united a lot of slavs and founded Rus'

2018-12-29 02:20:57 UTC  

his descendants would rule russia until the death of Ivan IV "The Terrible"

2018-12-29 02:21:50 UTC  

Ok. Ivan was the first Czar, so he was of Viking decent? I though Ivan was the beginning of a new era in Russian rule and culture...?

2018-12-29 02:22:11 UTC  

I've got some learning to do.

2018-12-29 02:22:28 UTC  

russians are a mixture of a lot of different peoples, just like americans

2018-12-29 02:23:04 UTC  

slavs are the main group, but they have a lot of finnic and ugrian ancestry, with a sprinkling of tatar and german

2018-12-29 02:23:18 UTC  

That's my very elementary understanding. I was just under the impression Ivan was the beginning and not the end of an era

2018-12-29 02:23:36 UTC  

in a lot of ways he was

2018-12-29 02:23:47 UTC  

he was both...?

2018-12-29 02:23:51 UTC  

yeah

2018-12-29 02:23:52 UTC  

can you calrify?

2018-12-29 02:23:56 UTC  

oh

2018-12-29 02:24:05 UTC  

probably a lot to clarify, haha

2018-12-29 02:24:21 UTC  

don't mean to ask for a history lesson haha

2018-12-29 02:24:29 UTC  

no problem

2018-12-29 02:25:15 UTC  

after mongols destroyed kiev and a lot of principalities, base of russian civilization shifted north of the forest line to places where nomadic hordes were less capable of attacking

2018-12-29 02:25:55 UTC  

moscow was a very loyal servant of the mongols, and gained a lot in power and wealth relatively during that time

2018-12-29 02:26:29 UTC  

by the 15th century, the mongols were destroying themselves through fighting between descendants of genghis khan and new warlords

2018-12-29 02:26:42 UTC  

so moscow was able to retake a lot of territory that had been lost

2018-12-29 02:27:08 UTC  

a lot of the various principalities had their own identities at that time, and regularly rebelled against moscow

2018-12-29 02:28:29 UTC  

Ivan IV is pretty famous for sacking novgorod, a major city that had its own identity, and he played an even larger role in his grandfather Ivan III in promoting russian identity in the territories he controlled

2018-12-29 02:28:57 UTC  

as time went on, the various principalities gradually lost their identities and became russians

2018-12-29 02:29:57 UTC  

however certain places like galicia and volhynia remained outside of russian control until 1945, and never adopted a russian identity, and instead kept their old identities as part of the old principalities. These identities became the modern ukrainian identity

2018-12-29 02:32:16 UTC  

so Ivan IV was part of a broader trend of centralization and russification that continued until 1917, but was exceptionally good at it

2018-12-29 02:32:42 UTC  

but he was still part of the old system in a lot of ways

2018-12-29 02:32:47 UTC  

hope that makes sense

2018-12-29 02:35:11 UTC  

Good introduction for sure. Let me know what you think of the book. Saw a cheap version (used) on amazon, how much did you pay? And how did you stumble on or rather settle on this book? Via interweb wormhole?

2018-12-29 03:05:14 UTC  

I think I was searching for medieval russian history on Amazon

2018-12-29 03:05:25 UTC  

it was $38 for kindle edition iirc

2018-12-29 03:06:37 UTC  

found a cheap used paperback. let me know how you like it. i'll probably pick it up regardless.