Messsage from shinjitsu in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed


SGL 2018-01-16 17:03:55  

I.e. that differences between groups are inherent

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:04:00  

Yeah of course

SGL 2018-01-16 17:04:06  

Ok.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:04:28  

You're making a conclusion that requires a jump from there that you're not justifying though

SGL 2018-01-16 17:04:39  

Did God make humans as agents of their own free will to some extent?

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:05:05  

Let's say yes completely given agency for the sake of the argument

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:05:26  

God's nature by it's very definition is essentially a mystery. All we have are the remaining texts that he left to us. That is what we know him by and what we can interpret his will as.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:06:00  

Wait hold up I wanna hear his reasoning

SGL 2018-01-16 17:06:04  

Ok then. Is it the fault of God then that some humans chose to collectivise themselves into groups that are inferior than others?

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:06:22  

Sounds like Deism almost.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:06:30  

The reasoning I mean.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:06:30  

In Calvinism *yes*

SGL 2018-01-16 17:06:33  

Thomas is right though - I can't make objective assertions regarding the motives of God

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:06:42  

This is my problem with what you're saying

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:07:23  

In Calvinism it 100% is the fault of God that people do these things. Both collectivizing and being individually immoral

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:07:34  

It's why I don't like Calvinism

SGL 2018-01-16 17:08:10  

Then so be it. In your interpretation, Christians should be egalitarian and that is also quite clearly false based upon Christian theology

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:08:19  

God obviously gave humans a certain degree of agency while at the same time outlining some form or another a means of possible, or at least plausible predestination.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:08:44  

No they shouldn't be because predestination is wrong, Calvinism is based on predestination and that is that

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:08:50  

In a theological sense, one cannot exist without the other.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:08:53  

By extension it's wrong

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:09:04  

No you can't have both

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:10:17  

Contradictions can persist everywhere that our minds can't comprehend. We know of only three dimensions, but that does not exclusively mean we do not feel the effects of a fourth, or that one does not exist somewhere.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:10:39  

Sure but you can't make any claim that's not the same as a contradicting

SGL 2018-01-16 17:10:48  

Of course you can. Otherwise why would humans be moral at all? If they are ascertained to not be one of the 'chosen few' then why do they not use their autonomy to live a hedonistic lifestyle? Because one can never truly know whether one is or isn't part of said chosen few and as such it's in one's best interest to act in a moral way.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:10:51  

I'm saying it is outlined in our religious texts specifically, that he did give us agency, but at the same time he does have some sort of intent, a plan.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:10:52  

You're talking about 2 things were consider that are mutually exclusive

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:10:57  

A type of predestination.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:11:09  

But exclusively believing in predestination is wrong as well.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:11:17  

Larp you need to look up what predestination is.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:11:31  

Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:11:34  

Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:12:46  

Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:13:02  

Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?

SGL 2018-01-16 17:13:15  

I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?

If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:17  

Intent isn't what predestination says

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:45  

You can't just use the word in a different sense

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:58  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:07  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:14:21  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:35  

Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%