Message from Thomas in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:03:44 UTC  

Does the Bible recognise the tribalistic nature of humanity?

2018-01-16 17:03:55 UTC  

I.e. that differences between groups are inherent

2018-01-16 17:04:00 UTC  

Yeah of course

2018-01-16 17:04:06 UTC  


2018-01-16 17:04:28 UTC  

You're making a conclusion that requires a jump from there that you're not justifying though

2018-01-16 17:04:39 UTC  

Did God make humans as agents of their own free will to some extent?

2018-01-16 17:05:05 UTC  

Let's say yes completely given agency for the sake of the argument

2018-01-16 17:05:26 UTC  

God's nature by it's very definition is essentially a mystery. All we have are the remaining texts that he left to us. That is what we know him by and what we can interpret his will as.

2018-01-16 17:06:00 UTC  

Wait hold up I wanna hear his reasoning

2018-01-16 17:06:04 UTC  

Ok then. Is it the fault of God then that some humans chose to collectivise themselves into groups that are inferior than others?

2018-01-16 17:06:22 UTC  

Sounds like Deism almost.

2018-01-16 17:06:30 UTC  

The reasoning I mean.

2018-01-16 17:06:30 UTC  

In Calvinism *yes*

2018-01-16 17:06:33 UTC  

Thomas is right though - I can't make objective assertions regarding the motives of God

2018-01-16 17:06:42 UTC  

This is my problem with what you're saying

2018-01-16 17:07:23 UTC  

In Calvinism it 100% is the fault of God that people do these things. Both collectivizing and being individually immoral

2018-01-16 17:07:34 UTC  

It's why I don't like Calvinism

2018-01-16 17:08:10 UTC  

Then so be it. In your interpretation, Christians should be egalitarian and that is also quite clearly false based upon Christian theology

2018-01-16 17:08:19 UTC  

God obviously gave humans a certain degree of agency while at the same time outlining some form or another a means of possible, or at least plausible predestination.

2018-01-16 17:08:44 UTC  

No they shouldn't be because predestination is wrong, Calvinism is based on predestination and that is that

2018-01-16 17:08:50 UTC  

In a theological sense, one cannot exist without the other.

2018-01-16 17:08:53 UTC  

By extension it's wrong

2018-01-16 17:09:04 UTC  

No you can't have both

2018-01-16 17:10:17 UTC  

Contradictions can persist everywhere that our minds can't comprehend. We know of only three dimensions, but that does not exclusively mean we do not feel the effects of a fourth, or that one does not exist somewhere.

2018-01-16 17:10:39 UTC  

Sure but you can't make any claim that's not the same as a contradicting

2018-01-16 17:10:48 UTC  

Of course you can. Otherwise why would humans be moral at all? If they are ascertained to not be one of the 'chosen few' then why do they not use their autonomy to live a hedonistic lifestyle? Because one can never truly know whether one is or isn't part of said chosen few and as such it's in one's best interest to act in a moral way.

2018-01-16 17:10:51 UTC  

I'm saying it is outlined in our religious texts specifically, that he did give us agency, but at the same time he does have some sort of intent, a plan.

2018-01-16 17:10:52 UTC  

You're talking about 2 things were consider that are mutually exclusive

2018-01-16 17:10:57 UTC  

A type of predestination.

2018-01-16 17:11:09 UTC  

But exclusively believing in predestination is wrong as well.

2018-01-16 17:11:17 UTC  

Larp you need to look up what predestination is.

2018-01-16 17:11:31 UTC  

Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.

2018-01-16 17:11:34 UTC  

Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas

2018-01-16 17:12:46 UTC  

Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will

2018-01-16 17:13:02 UTC  

Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?

2018-01-16 17:13:15 UTC  

I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?

If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same

2018-01-16 17:13:17 UTC  

Intent isn't what predestination says

2018-01-16 17:13:45 UTC  

You can't just use the word in a different sense

2018-01-16 17:13:58 UTC  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

2018-01-16 17:14:07 UTC  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

2018-01-16 17:14:21 UTC  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.