Even with slavery, that was actually a better arrangement for many of the slaves. I don’t think you understand how hard it was to survive back then.

Yes but we elect tyranny?

Our constitution is a limitation on the government. We cannot elect people to break our constitution

The amendments are clarifications, not additions

Then it’s a takeover

Oh

I thought you said not true to something else

America is undergoing an obvious takeover. Many will die, it’s just unclear if it will be America that wins

Also yea, women’s right to vote came with no conditions on women even though it always came with conditions on men. Property, military, etc.

Many women of the time were against it, for good reason

A better “clarification” would have been to make it so there are a list of ways you can invest in the nation to be allowed a vote

But we’re way past that now.

Felons cannot vote. Democrats want them too though lol

A privilege.

Obligation by whom? What happens if I don’t vote?

Why is everyone so hell bent of forcing people to do what they would do? Do what you would do. Don’t act immorally. And share the fruit of your labor as you see fit.

The world is divided. Some us want to share our own fruit as we see fit, and others of you want to share others’ fruit as you see fit.

Ok so you mean a moral obligation. Sure. I vote. But I don’t feel it’s obligatory

“Moral obligation” is a loose term though.

I’d say, it’s a good idea to vote, but you don’t have to. Actually you probably shouldn’t if you are ignorant on the issues

Capitalism doesn’t work if we are immoral

Government only protects against lies and murder and other immoral things

It defends the life and integrity of the nation

Black Lives Matter is about black lives like the Trojan Horse was an actual gift.

Have to run

I find that I’m not allowed to be skeptical of the skeptics.

That they aren’t so skeptical of their own skepticism; that maybe there is one truth, one way, and that it can be sensed (even if not perfectly embodied)

“Only idiots are certain” sounds like you’re certain about that

I know 😉 I’m just pointing out the irony of that statement

Sorry if I was too blunt!

Morality has to do with acting the right way, not getting the right outcome. The right thing will always make some people some level of unhappy at least some of the time.

Stop thinking about outcomes (especially of collectives, my God) when pondering “am I doing the right thing?”

Genocide, even if you could calculate it yielding what you consider “the right outcome”, is still wrong.

Yea I’m saying that’s not morality, and it’s premise is way off. Its premise is that you can calculate futures of systems of people; and, objectively, you can’t.

To act morally requires you to stop trying to control futures, especially those that aren’t yours.

I understand that some people construct “models of morality” that are self contradicting or that have impossible premises.

Convenient.

Morality is about HOW; not why.

“How do I act?”

You may not understand what it’s like to be principled and believe that truth and honesty are worth honoring, but when I tell the truth, I surely consider the outcome, but I don’t try to control it.

I spend little to no time (I sometimes fail) justifying lying by PRETENDING I can predict the outcome AND absorb the cost of that lie. I know that cost will be accrued somewhere, but I don’t pretend to know exactly where

Do Good things. Tell the truth. Be kind. Love. Be faithful. You can do these things in abundance, and the outcomes will find themselves.

Why spend so much energy developing a moral system that comes at the COST of, say, truth telling, just so you can MAYBE have the outcome YOU want (how do you even know that’s the best outcome?! You don’t)

Sorry if I am

“God” is that which all things originate. I’m not merely asserting a fact here, I’m making an equation.

@Zino, what do YOU call the source of existence and all things?

“I’m fine with your Number 2” ew, Malachi 😛

“Logos” is the WAY you know things. There are things your Logos will fail to know.

To know Him, you must relinquish your Logos for His; “Logos” is literally the word used for “God’s word” and is what represents Christ, the “way to the Father the Truth”

We are the seeing leading the blind. A blind man trusts you see what you say you see. A seeing man trusts Christ sees what he says he sees.

Regardless, “the way to the truth” is super important here, and has everything to do with Morality.

Science is a way to the truth (it is a FANTASTIC way) but it can’t lead you to all truths... only the ones that YOUR logos can measure, predict and control with.

Relinquish that need to control the destination, and it becomes clear that there are WAYS to the truth that you can follow, even if you don’t understand, and arrive there.

Again, like a blind man following a seeing man. Be a seeing man who follows Christ (AKA, God’s Logos)

Truth exists, you exist, there’s a way to get to the truth.... morality is related to that way.

Truth <- Way / Morality <- You

So do you Malachi

We all act as though there’s objective Truth;

If truth is “what is” then all right answers rely on it

Don’t you want the right answers?

“Subjective truth” makes no sense. People usually mean “subjective experience of an objective Truth”

The few who do believe in Truth itself being subjective will claim that the universe isn’t real, it’s just a manifestation of our collective imaginations (or something like that)

But nobody acts as though the universe is something we will into existence. We act as though it’s objective and consistent, so I don’t entertain discussions around Truth being whatever we collectively fantasize and will it to be

If you care about being well, you’d want answers on how to be well. Answers rely on truth

Those aren’t “different truths”
Those are different models of Truth. Or different Truth claims.

You cannot make a Truth claim or a model of Truth... without Truth.

Truth prefaces all.

I agree. But if that is TRUE, you first need to have a concept of Truth

My point is, you only “know” that because of truth. Truth is the only way to know anything.

We know things through symbols that represent truth. We don’t interface with Truth directly.

The notion that Christ is the Way to the truth is... it’s saying that Christ interfaces directly with Truth and, if we follow Him, we will arrive at the Truth.

A “cup” is a symbol for what it represents much like Christ is a symbol for what He represents.

Knowing that there is something between YOU and The Truth is profoundly life changing

@zino to have a model of Truth, you have to assert that there is a Truth to have a model of. My point is, we all contend with Truth; the SAME Truth. And we all act as if we all contend with the same truth.

We of course have different subjective experiences of it.

You don’t get to determine the qualities of Truth

You are a manifestation of Truth. The Truth won’t always be comfortable to you, but that doesn’t make it less true

Christ is “the way” to truth

I’m not saying that Christ happens to have it

I’m saying, if you can accept that there is a way to Truth, call that “Christ” and that’s what Christians believe

It’s definitional. Like “2 is twice 1” “Christ is the way to Truth”

Christ = The Way to Truth = Logos = God’s “word” = That, which if followed perfectly, brings you to Truth.

We cannot follow it perfectly

If what you call “Satan” actually arrived you at Truth, then you found what Christians call “Christ”

We don’t believe Satan is the way to anything. The devil manipulates and turns you away from “The Way” to Truth

I’m saying that if you accept there is 1 truth and there is a way to that truth that i beyond your own rational Logos, then you’re most of the way there.

If you believe that your rational Logos is how you will arrive at Truth, then you are comparing yourself to something much greater, just like a blind man comparing himself to you (who I assume can see)

Can you admit that you are blind to the actual truth in some ways?

Christ is that which is the path to Truth. Science is a path to Truth! It’s limited though.

One must accept that if they are to arrive at perfect truth, it will be by following something that sees perfectly. We do not see perfectly.

It’s not “circular” it’s self referential, and that’s obvious because “existence exists”

You’ll always come to a presupposition that is self referential

Truth is true.

Truth is.

Is is.

I’d rather start with the absolute statement that “truth is true” than the ironically absolute statement that “truth isn’t true”

That’s ok. Reality is also that which corresponds with truth. Agreed?

How? What’s something that’s true that is outside of reality? Or, what’s something that’s in reality that is outside of Truth?

This is just like the argument of 0.9999 repeating equaling 1 (it does)

@Empty - Mark that’s not my argument.

Truth cannot be false

You know something is false by knowing that it’s not true

Yes, you can say something that is not true

?

There are truths you will never see or arrive at with your own Logos. You must follow the way of something greater

No, you only make CLAIMS of Truth

Yes

But I recognize that there is truth, and that I don’t have the capacity to see it clearly

And that the heuristic of arriving at Truth involves a. Honoring truth and b. Following that which comes from and leads to Truth

Lies blatantly turn you away from the truth

Yes science only captures truth that is able to be measured and manipulated by us

Truth it greater than that

You cannot manipulate gravity

Science can use gravity to manipulate though

Jesus is just “that which sees truth clearly”

And that’s not you or me

You “know” what a lie is only if you know what the truth is.

If you intentionally say something that you don’t believe to be true, that’s a lie. You could accidentally be factually correct though lol

You’re condescending, bud. How about this? Good luck believing your Logos can arrive you at truth perfectly

Yes, you deceived me about what it is you believe to be true.

It’s a lie at that level

Nope

“I believe cats have 6 legs”
“Hey, I believe cats gave 4 legs”

The lie is about what you believe.

Nope

It is true that you believe cats have 6 legs.