hey everybody

who caught Dave Rubin on Rogan today

anyone else watch Owen Benjamin on youtube?

He just posted a new video responding to some of the things Sam Harris said on Dave Rubin, and I felt like talking about it

Well I definitely endorse the work he does and all that but his last couple of videos really rubbed me the wrong way

Benjamin

Well it is kind of complicated but basically he talks about religion in this video and its "necessity" but I really don't like his arguments

is he?? I figured he's Christian

He just talks about it in general, responding to Sam Harris basically saying that religion isn't a necessary causal factor for morality

well I'm interested in engaging in the conversation about it but I felt really weird about the way he structured his arguments

I have nothing against religion, but I also don't think it's fair to say that atheism is immoral because you need religion in order to have morality

Ok but even accepting that fact, I can easily come up for a logical way for an objective morality to come about without the involvement of religion

farming? never heard that one

Ok, so how farming?

well I guess I can see it.

Farming means relying on each other for food > We must rely on each other to survive > Logically must come up with a morality that fosters group survival

But even nomadic tribes had large groups

probably anywhere from 10 to like 150

but in north america it was probably waaay more than that

well yeah of course

but there's an easy way to have a shared moral code without religion

We don't want to die -> must rely on each other to not die -> must also trust each other to not die -> don't harm or betray other members of your species

ooh and there's also the whole thing about intersubjectivity

You talking about in general or monotheistic?

like theology?

well animism existed for a really long time

I don't know if we can prove it but I bet belief in spirits in nature exists as far back as communication does

"The remains of one of the earliest anatomically modern humans to be cremated was buried near Lake Mungo." -40,000 BCE

then I'd say it's any belief in the supernatural

that's also shared amongst a group

I think the most basic reason to have religion (in an evolutionary sense) is in order to not kill yourself because we're all gonna die anyway

not even to make it worthwhile, but to see cause and effect in nature

the trees grow because the tree gods willed them to

either way lol

I don't think you can say religion exists if people can't communicate that religion to each other, and that would apply to animals

there's a difference between religion and superstition

yes but they don't "think" about that cause and effect, their instincts just bring them in the direction of the worms because they evolved to doso

evidence?

I think you could definitely say that there's an adaptive reason for that

but not a genetic one**

I don't know if you could even say that animals "thrive"

I mean I love my dog, but my dog only loves me in so far as I can provide it food and shelter. That's instinct

Religion would be if the salmon actually had an inner monologue where it said that the end of the river is the path to righteousness

You only need evidence to prove positive claims, not to disprove them

what makes you think the birds believe in the rain god?

where does god come into that

again, are birds even capable of believing

or maybe they just learned to associate the rain with there being more worms

wait don't hunting dogs teach their young how to hunt?

I dunno, maybe there are natural learned behaviors but where does religion come into play what so ever?

Well no, they are learning behaviors because they see what works, and the greatest good to them is what ever keeps them alive

I didn't say that

I don't follow that logic

?

but you can't even say that there is belief

with people sure, but with instinctive animals no way

^

there are hierarchies in religion, there's no religion in hierarchies

no they don't

hierarchies are just a way of ranking one thing as better than another, but you don't need belief for that

you don't "believe" it, you just behave within the constructs of the hierarchy

you have to be capable of complex thought to be capable of belief

but lobsters don't choose those values, they just naturally behave within that structure

the lobster isn't thinking "i'm gonna mate with the biggest lobster," it's just naturally and instinctively choosing to mate with whatever has the greatest chance for successful procreation

but those thick coats aren't chosen because they believe anything, they just choose them because they instinctively are attracted to thicker coats

hyenas are instinctively attracted to hyenas with tougher jaws, no belief required

because of evolution

they don't choose those things, it just happens that the ones that survived the game of life had those qualities

or the attribute that keeps them alive

so what?

and?

what does that have to do with religion?

no?

that's a symptom of religion, not a factor of it

yeah, and people are capable of believing in things like that, animals are not

evidence?

the statement that birds believe in the supernatural is an extraordinary claim that has to be proven

but those opinions should be based in fact

I hate alcohol lol

👌

that's because we're all conservatives who don't yell at each other xD

I just assumed

maybe not then lol

Oh, speaking of which who has seen Sh0e's new video

it's amazing

she talks about the feminists who believe being straight is a choice

that wasn't nearly enough reason for me to stop

basically candid paid them to do sponsorships

but it turned out candid has been doing some really shady shit

yeah but they just didn't do enough research and they apologized for it later so whatever

yeah it died

I love them all lol

Not a big fan of TJ Kirk though

I have a friend who looks exactly like him

lol he's a gun loving texan so very different

I didn't like how TJ was basically cynical about everything

didn't see that

Dam

I called in yesterday

Yeah my call was somewhat early on