@R O M S O C アナーキー why such specific definitions?

its when you own it

im not asking to you to do a horrific butchering of the actual definition im asking you to refute

So, The workers produce means of consumption, that is to say goods, but their wages are far less than what their Labour is actually worth, that money, goes to the B O S S E S

That's surplus value extraction

how can you exploit yourself

cause under socialism you own your own work

@R O M S O C アナーキー ok and why is that an issue?

the workers consented

since they cant do it anywhere else

you are forced to work somewhere

@Brandod so did The child sex slave lol

or you can starve

wich is not an option

@R O M S O C アナーキー that simply isn't what we are talking about

@herb not true

is starvation an option?

i didn't like the shitty union at my one job i had in high school so i switched

wow

so hard

do you have any idea of what unions have done for you?

yeah, some are great

like weekends

the one at my job took about 30% of my wages and was not opt-in

40 hour workweek

no more child labour

pensions

overtime pay

minimun wage

```some are great```

you are preaching to the choir

@Brandod It is an issue because it is E X P L O I T A T I O N

well my specific union didn't do anything for me

the company i worked for payed me and gave me good hours

and stole alot of surplus value

they didn't steal it

they did

i consented to them taking it

you had to consent to some workplace doing it

no i didn't

therefor its not

And what I said about the Child sex slave is related, it's not consenting if there is no other option, besides starving, and it's only Voluntary if you are informed

if you dont work you will have no money

no money = no food

no food = starvation

We talk about *Informed voluntaryism*

so you have to go somewhere

@herb i could always mow lawns

no boss there

i could charge what i want

but it's annoying

and i prefer working at a normal job for a couple reasons

then your neightbour cant do the same

@Brandod Muh Self-contractors

what is he going to do

Pls no more self contractor arguments, they are basically fallacies at this point

@herb i don't work for my neighbor, i worked for rich people in my town

also he can do the same

he just needs to provide a better service

but there is no more lawns to plow

@R O M S O C アナーキー fallacy fallacy again

calm down mr

@herb so take some from me if you can do better

then your other neightbour

you are also creating no value

also like i said, I don't even want to self contract

so it isnt work

I am creating value

labor has value yes?

mvoing lawns doenst create anything

you said its only work if you create something

make up your mind

i create extra time for the lawn owner to do other things

there you go

I'll pay some kid 20$ to mow my lawn if he does a good job of it

Well people do respond to incitives

and to be fair i shouldn't have said "labor has value"

demand has value

So it's still a kind of exploitative

labour creates value

If i spend 30 hours and tons of effort making abstract art it doesn't have any value if nobody wants it

do you create art to sell it or to create art

if you spent 10 hours creating a chair

sorry, not sure what you mean

now lets set a price for that chair

you don't set prices

up to you

set a price

anything

whatever people will pay

say a number

sure

but first

how much did the wood cost and how long did it take me?

for simplefication

we dont care about that

and it took you 10 hours

uh ok then we'll go with 40$

now I create tha same chair in 20 hours