#civil-debate (Discord ID: 538929818834698260) in The Ice Wall, page 291
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hypothesis -> experiment/observation -> data -> interpretation/theory/law
that's my basic understanding of it
What’s experiment/observation mean
Why should I go to someone’s funeral if they aren’t even going to mine
Does the slash mean or
/ means "and" or "or"
In urs it means or ?
U can’t do the scientific method without experiment bro
it's an experiment if you have control over the parameters, but it's less of an experiment and just observation if you really have limited control
I mean, that's my understanding
I'm just telling you what I undesrtand about it
i'm no expert at this though
If u just have observation that’s not experiment
if you're going to measure something that is already in nature, I would call it an observation and not an experiment
U have to manipulate the iv in an experiment
U can just observe an experiment though
and in both cases, you need to make an observation (or more accurately a measurement) in order to collect data
Therefore his conclusion is wrong
U brought it to him and he said what ?
I don't think anyone has ever measured the distance of stars
He flipped out and said go away
Hey haven’t lol
He couldn't reconcile being wrong
"scientists" have only calculated the distance by using the hubble law (for far distant stars) and *maybe* some triangulation (I don't really know) for nearer stars
yea stellar paralax
either way, it's calculating using models
I don't think we can really measure the distance to stars
That's based on measurements
U need to know the size of something or the distance to it to find out the one measurem t u don’t have
the measurements that are made, I might not doubt their accuracy... but it's the models used that I question
You can do it with two angles and a distance
stellar paralax? fine, I can accept that. But the hubble law is founded on assumptions
The red shift thing?
Ya I gotta read about that
I think it's corraborated in another way
Like the size of the objects has certain things going on
If I cut a circle out of cardboard [email protected] a field and u don’t know how far away I am I can tell the size of the circle ?
U can tell ?
Wanna know how?
I doubt u could
But go ahead
I can tell you
Go tell me
I can stand in one spot and zero out my pointer , targeting the object
Then walk 45 ft to the right, and read my pointers new angle
Ur pointer ?
Yes a device that tells me the angle I'm pointing
I have a right triangle then
And angle and a side of the triangle, boom I can calc the distance
Then I can measure the angular size of the object
Then calc its actual size
@RogueReflector as I mentioned before, there are two sources of redshift: The most obvious source of redshift is doppler (including time dilation due to special relativity); the less obvious source of redshift is gravitational, which depends on gravitational potential (confirmed through the Harvard Tower Experiment, and similarly repeated experiments).
Is a sextant ?
For the Hubble Law (and the hubble constant) to be valid, gravitational redshift needs to be decoupled from doppler (redshift due to motion)
So u got ur sextant or theodolite u do this with the moon and the sun
U come up with some valid numbers ?
@jeremy for the sun it doesn't work bc the angles change is too small
If you could quantify how much of the redshift is due to motion (expansion of the universe) and how much redshift is due to a difference in gravitational potential, on one end of a spectrum the galaxies far away could be still and just at a lower gravitational potential than we are today, and on the other end the galaxies are at equal gravitational potential as we are today and are moving away from us. The hubble law assumes that the redshift is due entirely to the doppler effect caused by the expansion of the universe.
For the moon yes it works. We can measure it's parallax from diff places on the earth
Or it could be because we never see the actual sun we see the apparent position of the sun no ?
Dunno what that would do, no matter what we see the apparent position of every object
So ok u got ur pointer u check ur angles to the moon what number u get
That's just a give
Are they using math with s sphere or flat earth when they do that
The measured distance between the locations
That's what's used
The curve doesn’t come into play in the math ok
Wait a sec
The sun and moon are same apparent size
I used to watch Bill Nye every day as a teenager. Looking at him now though, sometimes I wish I never wasted my time.
We need to back this up a little rogue please
Sun and moon are same apparent size
Because we have total solar eclipse and partial solar eclipses
@jeremy Some people would argue that the sun and moon being the same size is proof that God intelligently made the heavens and the earth. Some people would argue that it's evidence that an exceedingly more superior alien race artificially placed the earth and the moon into their orbit positions.
Seems the moon changes size a bit
Turns out it changes by 14%
Are u saying the sun and moon aren’t the same apparent size
Close to the same size
It not exactly
Within about 7%
I think that's because the moons orbit is elliptical right?
sometimes it's farther and sometimes it's closer
So we agree the sun and moon have the same apparent size
not by a lot
So take the cosine of that
on average, the sun and moon have the same size, no?
Again about 7% . If you call that the same ok, but I don't
We are gonna take our measurement of the sun and moon during a solar eclipse
Right they almost perfectly match at that point in time ?
is the moon slightly bigger in apparent size?
You can't have a total solar eclipse unless the moon's apparent size is equal or greater than the sun, right?
They are extremely close can we go with that ?
is that 7% area or 7% diameter?
Ok so we need to go back to where u said the angle change was too small for the sun
Well could be up to 14% diff really
They are the same size almost
How’s the angle change too small for the sun to take the measurement we do for the moon
for all practical purposes, they are the same apparent size
Be cause it's further away
We r getting the distance with the angle change I thought
The angle change is too small to measure
The angle change is giving us the distance
Ya and with a large enough distance this method is too inaccurate
It’s the same as the moon
Ya but the angle change we get when we do this on the moon is a number much large than the uncertainty in our instrument
If u did the measurement to the moon with ur angles and the sun u get the same number
No they're different
Indicating the moon is much closer
Ok let’s take this nice and slow
2 people on earth solar eclipse
Ya I think you're missing something
Hang on a sec
2 people on earth solar eclipse at totality they are gonna check the angles and come up with the same number
I don't understand what "angles" we're talking about here
What angle are you talking about
How would u get different numbers
Diff numbers for what
Ok let’s go nice and slow
You aren't explaining your idea properly
We are gonna. Measure the distance to the moon and sun using this angle thing during a solar eclipse
When the moon exactly covers the sun they will get the angles
How are the numbers different
How far apart are the two observers h
How about west coast of us and east coast
Say 2000 miles
Well then. When one is in totality the other is not, and will see the sun partially covered
Ok use them closer
K let's put them right on top of each other
The moon casts a shadow at least as big as the moon on earth right
Let’s not go down that road yet
Not the umbra
Let’s say 50 miles apart can they both be in totality then ?
Totality is about 70 miles wide
Ya for a small instant
Ok 70 miles do it
Do ur angles
K, they would get slightly different angles
Pretty small, so not a good separation
The sun and moon are the same apparent size I don’t understand how measuring both from earth gets u different numbers to where it’s 92 million miles farther
During a total solar eclipse the moon is slightly larger than the sun, that's why totality is like 2 minutes long
Or maybe more
Ok that tiny bit bigger equals 02 million extra miles ?
92 million ?
system is flawed? just say gravity lmao
Ok why don’t u explain to me why the angle doesn’t work with the sun again u said cause the suns too far away ?
Right, when you try this method on the sun, it appears to be so far away compared to the base of any two oberver leg
But we r doing this to get the distance we don’t know it’s too far away yet
And the angles can't be measured accurately enough
We don’t know anything about the sun we are in a field with our theodolite
We try it and find that the distance is large, and we don't know it precisely, with that method
How’s it differ from the moon angles
Right, but this method can tell you it's too far for the method to give a good value
Because the angles we get when we do this on the moon are laregly different
When observers are far apart
So we measure the angles to the moon everything works fine then we do it with the sun and what ?
Sorry I’m not understanding
What goes wrong when we measure the angles to the sun
We barely see any angle change from one location to the next
I assume the "Truther" role means you are a flat earther?
Kinda like if your looking at a mountain far away, and walk 3 ft to the right, it's still in front of you
Why does it work with the moon then
the earth is a malteser
Okay, you are talking about the angular diameter?
if the earth is flat explain to me how trees exist
I don’t understand how this would work with the moon and not the sun as they are the same size
The earth is flat
just look at the evidence
Lemme build myself a rocket
if the earth is flat how come we never hear about them pilots who fell off the map
And check mywelf
**several ppl are typing*
When a full moon is out, measure the angular diameter of the moon while you're standing at the equator. Then go to CANADA or some place far north and measure the angular diameter of the full moon. Compare the two?
the earth isnt flat bro
this isnt minecraft
pilots have gone missing
thats the falling off
you trying tell me star wars didnt happen in a glaxy far far away a long time ago????/
sounds like trolling (Myers)
you make me sick
ik myers is trolling
you ruined my childhood
If I walk to the edge of the planet there is a void
That's what you tryna tell me?
Just explain why it works with the moon and not the sun. The reason u have before was the suns too far but we don’t know how far it is we are using this angle thing to find out
Well you wouldn;'t be able to walk to it because of the gov
we've been to the moon god damn it!
you won't go past the ice walls
let me guess, you think 9/11 was a inside job too
And we plan to go back to the moon soon
it was though
there is a lot of evidence
and scientific too
I'll come back when the trolling stops 😩
Lmao so of the ice caps melt, all the water on our planet will fall into space?
okay show me the evidence
university of alaska published a paper saying the building did not fall due to fires