#civil-debate (Discord ID: 538929818834698260) in The Ice Wall, page 291

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2019-10-15 02:41:15 UTC

hypothesis -> experiment/observation -> data -> interpretation/theory/law

2019-10-15 02:41:24 UTC

that's my basic understanding of it

2019-10-15 02:41:28 UTC


2019-10-15 02:41:44 UTC


2019-10-15 02:41:58 UTC

What’s experiment/observation mean

2019-10-15 02:42:03 UTC

Why should I go to someone’s funeral if they aren’t even going to mine

2019-10-15 02:42:17 UTC

Does the slash mean or

2019-10-15 02:42:20 UTC


2019-10-15 02:42:24 UTC


2019-10-15 02:42:29 UTC


2019-10-15 02:42:35 UTC

/ means "and" or "or"

2019-10-15 02:42:53 UTC

In urs it means or ?

2019-10-15 02:43:29 UTC

U can’t do the scientific method without experiment bro

2019-10-15 02:43:45 UTC

it's an experiment if you have control over the parameters, but it's less of an experiment and just observation if you really have limited control

2019-10-15 02:43:49 UTC

I mean, that's my understanding

2019-10-15 02:44:03 UTC

I'm just telling you what I undesrtand about it

2019-10-15 02:44:09 UTC

i'm no expert at this though

2019-10-15 02:44:18 UTC


2019-10-15 02:44:48 UTC

If u just have observation that’s not experiment

2019-10-15 02:44:55 UTC

if you're going to measure something that is already in nature, I would call it an observation and not an experiment

2019-10-15 02:44:59 UTC

U have to manipulate the iv in an experiment

2019-10-15 02:45:36 UTC

U can just observe an experiment though

2019-10-15 02:45:40 UTC


2019-10-15 02:45:43 UTC

and in both cases, you need to make an observation (or more accurately a measurement) in order to collect data

2019-10-15 02:46:32 UTC

@jeremy yes you're right, and Riley did not

2019-10-15 02:46:40 UTC

Therefore his conclusion is wrong

2019-10-15 02:46:44 UTC


2019-10-15 02:46:55 UTC

U brought it to him and he said what ?

2019-10-15 02:47:03 UTC

I don't think anyone has ever measured the distance of stars

2019-10-15 02:47:11 UTC

He flipped out and said go away

2019-10-15 02:47:12 UTC

Hey haven’t lol

2019-10-15 02:47:18 UTC

He couldn't reconcile being wrong

2019-10-15 02:48:34 UTC

"scientists" have only calculated the distance by using the hubble law (for far distant stars) and *maybe* some triangulation (I don't really know) for nearer stars

2019-10-15 02:48:51 UTC

@SunRazor stellar paralax

2019-10-15 02:48:52 UTC

@RogueReflector be careful, don't start name calling

2019-10-15 02:49:12 UTC

yea stellar paralax

2019-10-15 02:49:31 UTC

either way, it's calculating using models

2019-10-15 02:49:55 UTC

I don't think we can really measure the distance to stars

2019-10-15 02:50:17 UTC

That's based on measurements

2019-10-15 02:50:39 UTC

U need to know the size of something or the distance to it to find out the one measurem t u don’t have

2019-10-15 02:50:58 UTC

the measurements that are made, I might not doubt their accuracy... but it's the models used that I question

2019-10-15 02:51:33 UTC

@jeremy ya, that's not true

2019-10-15 02:51:45 UTC

You can do it with two angles and a distance

2019-10-15 02:51:52 UTC

stellar paralax? fine, I can accept that. But the hubble law is founded on assumptions

2019-10-15 02:52:08 UTC

The red shift thing?

2019-10-15 02:52:14 UTC


2019-10-15 02:52:23 UTC

Ya I gotta read about that

2019-10-15 02:52:34 UTC

I think it's corraborated in another way

2019-10-15 02:52:47 UTC

Like the size of the objects has certain things going on

2019-10-15 02:52:52 UTC

If I cut a circle out of cardboard [email protected] a field and u don’t know how far away I am I can tell the size of the circle ?

2019-10-15 02:53:02 UTC


2019-10-15 02:53:07 UTC

U can tell ?

2019-10-15 02:53:14 UTC

Wanna know how?

2019-10-15 02:53:25 UTC

I doubt u could

2019-10-15 02:53:29 UTC

But go ahead

2019-10-15 02:53:32 UTC

I can tell you

2019-10-15 02:53:39 UTC

Go tell me

2019-10-15 02:53:42 UTC


2019-10-15 02:54:04 UTC

I can stand in one spot and zero out my pointer , targeting the object

2019-10-15 02:54:12 UTC


2019-10-15 02:54:25 UTC

Then walk 45 ft to the right, and read my pointers new angle

2019-10-15 02:54:25 UTC

Ur pointer ?

2019-10-15 02:54:38 UTC

Yes a device that tells me the angle I'm pointing

2019-10-15 02:54:55 UTC

I have a right triangle then

2019-10-15 02:55:19 UTC

And angle and a side of the triangle, boom I can calc the distance

2019-10-15 02:55:30 UTC

Then I can measure the angular size of the object

2019-10-15 02:55:38 UTC

Then calc its actual size

2019-10-15 02:55:49 UTC

This device

2019-10-15 02:55:50 UTC

@RogueReflector as I mentioned before, there are two sources of redshift: The most obvious source of redshift is doppler (including time dilation due to special relativity); the less obvious source of redshift is gravitational, which depends on gravitational potential (confirmed through the Harvard Tower Experiment, and similarly repeated experiments).

2019-10-15 02:55:54 UTC

Is a sextant ?

2019-10-15 02:56:03 UTC

@jeremy nah a theodolite is better

2019-10-15 02:56:47 UTC


2019-10-15 02:57:00 UTC

For the Hubble Law (and the hubble constant) to be valid, gravitational redshift needs to be decoupled from doppler (redshift due to motion)

2019-10-15 02:57:46 UTC

@SunRazor I see. I don't knowuch about that

2019-10-15 02:58:22 UTC


2019-10-15 02:58:43 UTC

So u got ur sextant or theodolite u do this with the moon and the sun

2019-10-15 02:58:46 UTC

@jeremy simple geometry

2019-10-15 02:59:21 UTC

U come up with some valid numbers ?

2019-10-15 02:59:28 UTC

@jeremy for the sun it doesn't work bc the angles change is too small

2019-10-15 02:59:43 UTC

If you could quantify how much of the redshift is due to motion (expansion of the universe) and how much redshift is due to a difference in gravitational potential, on one end of a spectrum the galaxies far away could be still and just at a lower gravitational potential than we are today, and on the other end the galaxies are at equal gravitational potential as we are today and are moving away from us. The hubble law assumes that the redshift is due entirely to the doppler effect caused by the expansion of the universe.

2019-10-15 02:59:53 UTC

For the moon yes it works. We can measure it's parallax from diff places on the earth

2019-10-15 03:00:06 UTC

Or it could be because we never see the actual sun we see the apparent position of the sun no ?

2019-10-15 03:00:29 UTC

Dunno what that would do, no matter what we see the apparent position of every object

2019-10-15 03:00:32 UTC

So ok u got ur pointer u check ur angles to the moon what number u get

2019-10-15 03:00:35 UTC

That's just a give

2019-10-15 03:00:45 UTC

Moons distance

2019-10-15 03:01:30 UTC

Are they using math with s sphere or flat earth when they do that

2019-10-15 03:01:51 UTC

The measured distance between the locations

2019-10-15 03:01:56 UTC

That's what's used

2019-10-15 03:02:24 UTC

The curve doesn’t come into play in the math ok

2019-10-15 03:03:09 UTC

Wait a sec

2019-10-15 03:03:23 UTC

The sun and moon are same apparent size

2019-10-15 03:04:11 UTC

I used to watch Bill Nye every day as a teenager. Looking at him now though, sometimes I wish I never wasted my time.

2019-10-15 03:04:41 UTC

We need to back this up a little rogue please

2019-10-15 03:04:52 UTC

Sun and moon are same apparent size

2019-10-15 03:06:19 UTC

Are they?

2019-10-15 03:06:32 UTC

Because we have total solar eclipse and partial solar eclipses

2019-10-15 03:06:34 UTC

@jeremy Some people would argue that the sun and moon being the same size is proof that God intelligently made the heavens and the earth. Some people would argue that it's evidence that an exceedingly more superior alien race artificially placed the earth and the moon into their orbit positions.

2019-10-15 03:06:41 UTC

Seems the moon changes size a bit

2019-10-15 03:06:52 UTC

Turns out it changes by 14%

2019-10-15 03:07:02 UTC

Are u saying the sun and moon aren’t the same apparent size

2019-10-15 03:07:11 UTC

Close to the same size

2019-10-15 03:07:16 UTC

It not exactly

2019-10-15 03:07:37 UTC

Within about 7%

2019-10-15 03:07:38 UTC

I think that's because the moons orbit is elliptical right?

2019-10-15 03:07:42 UTC


2019-10-15 03:07:49 UTC

sometimes it's farther and sometimes it's closer

2019-10-15 03:07:53 UTC

And inclined

2019-10-15 03:07:55 UTC

So we agree the sun and moon have the same apparent size

2019-10-15 03:07:56 UTC

not by a lot

2019-10-15 03:07:59 UTC


2019-10-15 03:07:59 UTC

So take the cosine of that

2019-10-15 03:08:17 UTC

@jeremy they're close but not quite the same

2019-10-15 03:08:18 UTC

on average, the sun and moon have the same size, no?

2019-10-15 03:08:22 UTC

Ok stop

2019-10-15 03:08:35 UTC

Again about 7% . If you call that the same ok, but I don't

2019-10-15 03:08:45 UTC

We are gonna take our measurement of the sun and moon during a solar eclipse

2019-10-15 03:09:07 UTC

Right they almost perfectly match at that point in time ?

2019-10-15 03:09:21 UTC

is the moon slightly bigger in apparent size?

2019-10-15 03:09:48 UTC

You can't have a total solar eclipse unless the moon's apparent size is equal or greater than the sun, right?

2019-10-15 03:09:52 UTC

They are extremely close can we go with that ?

2019-10-15 03:10:01 UTC


2019-10-15 03:10:06 UTC

Within 7%

2019-10-15 03:10:20 UTC

is that 7% area or 7% diameter?

2019-10-15 03:10:21 UTC

Ok so we need to go back to where u said the angle change was too small for the sun

2019-10-15 03:10:28 UTC

Well could be up to 14% diff really

2019-10-15 03:10:42 UTC

@SunRazor ha I dunno, I think it's diameter?

2019-10-15 03:10:56 UTC
2019-10-15 03:11:15 UTC

They are the same size almost

2019-10-15 03:11:21 UTC


2019-10-15 03:11:32 UTC

How’s the angle change too small for the sun to take the measurement we do for the moon

2019-10-15 03:11:36 UTC

for all practical purposes, they are the same apparent size

2019-10-15 03:11:51 UTC

Be cause it's further away

2019-10-15 03:11:56 UTC


2019-10-15 03:12:12 UTC

We r getting the distance with the angle change I thought

2019-10-15 03:12:13 UTC

The angle change is too small to measure

2019-10-15 03:12:27 UTC

The angle change is giving us the distance

2019-10-15 03:12:34 UTC

Ya and with a large enough distance this method is too inaccurate

2019-10-15 03:12:39 UTC

It’s the same as the moon

2019-10-15 03:13:08 UTC

Ya but the angle change we get when we do this on the moon is a number much large than the uncertainty in our instrument

2019-10-15 03:13:14 UTC

If u did the measurement to the moon with ur angles and the sun u get the same number

2019-10-15 03:13:22 UTC

No they're different

2019-10-15 03:13:30 UTC

Indicating the moon is much closer

2019-10-15 03:14:04 UTC

Ok let’s take this nice and slow

2019-10-15 03:14:15 UTC

2 people on earth solar eclipse

2019-10-15 03:14:18 UTC

Ya I think you're missing something

2019-10-15 03:14:24 UTC

Hang on a sec

2019-10-15 03:15:01 UTC

2 people on earth solar eclipse at totality they are gonna check the angles and come up with the same number

2019-10-15 03:15:07 UTC

I don't understand what "angles" we're talking about here

2019-10-15 03:15:21 UTC

@jeremy ya that makes no sense

2019-10-15 03:15:32 UTC

What angle are you talking about

2019-10-15 03:15:39 UTC

How would u get different numbers

2019-10-15 03:15:48 UTC

Diff numbers for what

2019-10-15 03:16:01 UTC

Ok let’s go nice and slow

2019-10-15 03:16:21 UTC

You aren't explaining your idea properly

2019-10-15 03:16:24 UTC

We are gonna. Measure the distance to the moon and sun using this angle thing during a solar eclipse

2019-10-15 03:16:31 UTC


2019-10-15 03:16:33 UTC

Unfollow sonfar

2019-10-15 03:16:37 UTC


2019-10-15 03:16:44 UTC


2019-10-15 03:17:32 UTC

When the moon exactly covers the sun they will get the angles

2019-10-15 03:17:37 UTC


2019-10-15 03:17:51 UTC

How are the numbers different

2019-10-15 03:18:29 UTC

How far apart are the two observers h

2019-10-15 03:18:47 UTC

U decide

2019-10-15 03:19:01 UTC

How about west coast of us and east coast

2019-10-15 03:19:16 UTC


2019-10-15 03:19:22 UTC

Say 2000 miles

2019-10-15 03:19:44 UTC

Well then. When one is in totality the other is not, and will see the sun partially covered

2019-10-15 03:19:56 UTC

Ok use them closer

2019-10-15 03:20:12 UTC

K let's put them right on top of each other

2019-10-15 03:20:17 UTC

The moon casts a shadow at least as big as the moon on earth right

2019-10-15 03:20:30 UTC

Let’s not go down that road yet

2019-10-15 03:20:39 UTC

Not the umbra

2019-10-15 03:20:45 UTC

Let’s say 50 miles apart can they both be in totality then ?

2019-10-15 03:20:51 UTC

Totality is about 70 miles wide

2019-10-15 03:21:01 UTC

Ya for a small instant

2019-10-15 03:21:07 UTC

Ok 70 miles do it

2019-10-15 03:21:13 UTC


2019-10-15 03:21:15 UTC

Then what

2019-10-15 03:21:22 UTC

Do ur angles

2019-10-15 03:21:34 UTC

K, they would get slightly different angles

2019-10-15 03:21:44 UTC

Pretty small, so not a good separation

2019-10-15 03:22:03 UTC


2019-10-15 03:22:28 UTC


2019-10-15 03:22:49 UTC

The sun and moon are the same apparent size I don’t understand how measuring both from earth gets u different numbers to where it’s 92 million miles farther

2019-10-15 03:23:15 UTC

During a total solar eclipse the moon is slightly larger than the sun, that's why totality is like 2 minutes long

2019-10-15 03:23:19 UTC

Or maybe more

2019-10-15 03:23:46 UTC

Ok that tiny bit bigger equals 02 million extra miles ?

2019-10-15 03:23:53 UTC

92 million ?

2019-10-15 03:24:19 UTC

@jeremy that bigger, is completely unrelated to the angles

2019-10-15 03:24:21 UTC

system is flawed? just say gravity lmao

2019-10-15 03:25:02 UTC

Ok why don’t u explain to me why the angle doesn’t work with the sun again u said cause the suns too far away ?

2019-10-15 03:25:38 UTC

Right, when you try this method on the sun, it appears to be so far away compared to the base of any two oberver leg

2019-10-15 03:25:43 UTC

But we r doing this to get the distance we don’t know it’s too far away yet

2019-10-15 03:25:59 UTC

And the angles can't be measured accurately enough

2019-10-15 03:26:21 UTC

We don’t know anything about the sun we are in a field with our theodolite

2019-10-15 03:26:22 UTC

We try it and find that the distance is large, and we don't know it precisely, with that method

2019-10-15 03:26:38 UTC

How’s it differ from the moon angles

2019-10-15 03:26:51 UTC

Right, but this method can tell you it's too far for the method to give a good value

2019-10-15 03:27:08 UTC

Because the angles we get when we do this on the moon are laregly different

2019-10-15 03:27:20 UTC

When observers are far apart

2019-10-15 03:28:04 UTC

So we measure the angles to the moon everything works fine then we do it with the sun and what ?

2019-10-15 03:28:27 UTC

Sorry I’m not understanding

2019-10-15 03:29:35 UTC

What goes wrong when we measure the angles to the sun

2019-10-15 03:34:23 UTC

We barely see any angle change from one location to the next

2019-10-15 03:34:50 UTC

I assume the "Truther" role means you are a flat earther?

2019-10-15 03:34:52 UTC

Kinda like if your looking at a mountain far away, and walk 3 ft to the right, it's still in front of you

2019-10-15 03:35:00 UTC
2019-10-15 03:35:14 UTC

Why does it work with the moon then

2019-10-15 03:35:19 UTC

the earth is a malteser

2019-10-15 03:35:30 UTC

Okay, you are talking about the angular diameter?

2019-10-15 03:35:37 UTC

if the earth is flat explain to me how trees exist

2019-10-15 03:35:45 UTC

I don’t understand how this would work with the moon and not the sun as they are the same size

2019-10-15 03:35:49 UTC

The earth is flat

2019-10-15 03:35:54 UTC

just look at the evidence

2019-10-15 03:36:01 UTC


2019-10-15 03:36:07 UTC

Lemme build myself a rocket

2019-10-15 03:36:09 UTC

if the earth is flat how come we never hear about them pilots who fell off the map

2019-10-15 03:36:12 UTC

And check mywelf

2019-10-15 03:36:15 UTC

**several ppl are typing*

2019-10-15 03:36:17 UTC

When a full moon is out, measure the angular diameter of the moon while you're standing at the equator. Then go to CANADA or some place far north and measure the angular diameter of the full moon. Compare the two?

2019-10-15 03:36:23 UTC

the earth isnt flat bro

2019-10-15 03:36:25 UTC


2019-10-15 03:36:27 UTC

this isnt minecraft

2019-10-15 03:36:31 UTC

pilots have gone missing

2019-10-15 03:36:40 UTC

thats the falling off

2019-10-15 03:36:50 UTC

@SunRazor that would work but it'd be really small

2019-10-15 03:36:52 UTC

you trying tell me star wars didnt happen in a glaxy far far away a long time ago????/

2019-10-15 03:36:58 UTC

sounds like trolling (Myers)

2019-10-15 03:37:16 UTC

you make me sick

2019-10-15 03:37:18 UTC

ik myers is trolling

2019-10-15 03:37:22 UTC

you ruined my childhood

2019-10-15 03:37:22 UTC

If I walk to the edge of the planet there is a void

2019-10-15 03:37:26 UTC

That's what you tryna tell me?

2019-10-15 03:37:27 UTC

Just explain why it works with the moon and not the sun. The reason u have before was the suns too far but we don’t know how far it is we are using this angle thing to find out

2019-10-15 03:37:40 UTC

Well you wouldn;'t be able to walk to it because of the gov

2019-10-15 03:37:40 UTC

we've been to the moon god damn it!

2019-10-15 03:37:49 UTC

you won't go past the ice walls

2019-10-15 03:37:54 UTC

let me guess, you think 9/11 was a inside job too

2019-10-15 03:37:59 UTC

And we plan to go back to the moon soon

2019-10-15 03:38:01 UTC

it was though

2019-10-15 03:38:07 UTC


2019-10-15 03:38:09 UTC

there is a lot of evidence

2019-10-15 03:38:12 UTC

and scientific too

2019-10-15 03:38:22 UTC

I'll come back when the trolling stops 😩

2019-10-15 03:38:25 UTC

Lmao so of the ice caps melt, all the water on our planet will fall into space?

2019-10-15 03:38:27 UTC

okay show me the evidence

2019-10-15 03:38:31 UTC

university of alaska published a paper saying the building did not fall due to fires

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