'08 was the opposite of '16 in some ways. Candidate Obama sounded great. He was even against NAFTA. Then he won and turned into utter garbage. Candidate Trump didn't seem to have any clear idea at all then he governed like a genius.

Well I meant more for Ron Paul

I was never enthusiastic about Obama

Except glad the GWB days were at least over

I went Paul in the primary. Hell even the L candidate was shit in '08 though.

Yeah was that the Bob Barr year?

Yeah.

Hey let's pick the guy that helped vote in the Patriot Act

the national LP has been a joke since then

I mean they usually picked nerds before that but they were interesting nerds. Like Brown and Badarnik.

In fact Rand's 'penny plan' was first proposed by Brown.

Yeah and Gary Johnson is ok I guess, but Bill Weld? No. I thought if they were going to go full crazy to try to go after Trump, McAfee would've been the choice.

Weld is a tool. I never disliked Johnson. I mean everyone was upset about the Aleppo thing. I was kinda like, "Wouldn't it be nice if the President didn't know what Aleppo is or even give a shit?"

Exactly

And yet, now we got Sleepy Joe who doesn't even know what office he's running for and Trump can really say whatever he wants. I hate the different standards.

I'm fairly positive about that. Look media will cover for his senility but there will be debates. And they are going to put a man who can't remember what day it is in a ring with Trump. It may be more of a slaughter than when Bernie tried to debate Cruz on healthcare.

I mean he's just going to get mauled.

Yeah, Trump will destroy him in any head-to-head debate. Bernie and a huge youth vote turnout is the only chance they have of unseating Trump.

Well that's kind of Bernie's problem. You can't win with just the youth and nobody old enough to remember the Cold War is gonna vote for a commie.

I'd vote for him just for anti-establishment and he's kind of based. Universal healthcare would be nice too and I know he can't pass everything he wants.

Minimum wage at $15? Nah. Free college? No.

Umm, have you actually known anyone who has been reduced to using Medicare?

yes, my uncle

Pretty awful. I hope your uncle had Medicare supplemental insurance.

@Jym Bernie acts like anyone who doesnt vote for him supports the ominous monolith "establishment". Maybe people just disagree with your literally impossible campaign promises? <:pot_of_kek:544849795433496586>

He seems to get care just fine, it's the little dumb things that they want him to do like have some yearly doctor's "audit" where they make recommendations where no one follows up.

Mainly though, whether through the government or a freer market system: my main goals would be to see medical care cost a lot less and not have it tied to something like your job.

You should really compare it to the basic coverage one gets from the normal insurance system. There's a world of difference.

Well I have a bronze plan so

I can't say it's much better

My goal is also to reduce *costs* socialized medicine is a change in *method of payment*.

I don't even have bronze. I have major medical (for shit like cancer and getting hit by a bus) and Concierge which costs less and provides more.

Well it would be nice if the government would strong arm the medical/insurance industry instead of the other way around

State of MN does a good job subsidizing plans on their marketplace website, but still not cheap by any means

Not entirely opposed depending on what you mean by 'strong arming'. Half of the world's medicines are invented here. Now they pay for the R&D by having a local monopoly. If we legalized *importing* medication they would have to raise their prices abroad because they would have to compete against arbitrage.

Also what you call 'bronze' now cost half as much before ACA.

Maybe it does cost less, all I know is after Obamacare passed and I had work health insurance it went from awesome to mediocre and cost 2x as much

and got worse every year after

Pretty much because while it is not 'single payer' per-say it has the same economic effect. Because it changes not cost but method of payment. So the burden of payment transfers to you and the quality goes down. Whether that is though Bernie's tax or Obama's fees the result is the same.

It's still the fault of the insurance companies in collusion with hospitals to jack up prices astronomically

so whatever busts that stranglehold

a way-open free market? A central healthcare system telling them what to charge? Either way