Message from @Derde

Discord ID: 481132217985269769


2018-08-20 16:02:05 UTC  

Justification is perfect. Faith can be weak or strong in different believers, but true faith is by justification and justification is the same in all believers as one is either justified or not. But sanctification is a different thing from justification. It is never perfect in this life because the believer will always have his carnal nature. Believers have two natures: the carnal and the spiritual. Until he dies and goes to Heaven, when he is made perfect in holiness.

2018-08-20 16:03:14 UTC  

You can't just attach a whole theology to a word when that word has a perfectly good meaning already.

2018-08-20 16:03:28 UTC  

This is Calvinism

2018-08-20 16:04:07 UTC  

Justification and Sanctification are theological words and have to be understood in their theological contexts

2018-08-20 16:04:15 UTC  

I defy you to find the words "true faith" in a real Bible.

2018-08-20 16:04:39 UTC  

I have already given you a passage from Scripture which talks about good and bad fruits

2018-08-20 16:05:07 UTC  

Christ was talking about the Pharisees who had the externals of faith but were not true believers and that was shown by their fruits

2018-08-20 16:05:19 UTC  

He was warning about false prophets.

2018-08-20 16:05:23 UTC  

Exactly

2018-08-20 16:05:26 UTC  

They have plenty of wonderful works.

2018-08-20 16:05:31 UTC  

And miracles

2018-08-20 16:05:37 UTC  

And they call him "Lord Lord"

2018-08-20 16:05:57 UTC  

Indeed but they were not true believers

2018-08-20 16:06:12 UTC  

And that is what Christ is saying: they're fruits were not the fruit of the Spirit

2018-08-20 16:06:18 UTC  

They did not have true faith

2018-08-20 16:06:28 UTC  

But they did have lordship salvation.

2018-08-20 16:06:33 UTC  

No they didn't

2018-08-20 16:06:42 UTC  

They had faith in their works.

2018-08-20 16:07:07 UTC  

Look, Lordship salvation is a term that people started using in the 20th century. So just ignore that. The doctrine is that Christ is one's Lord and Saviour

2018-08-20 16:07:15 UTC  

Not just a Saviour but also Lord

2018-08-20 16:07:39 UTC  

He's Lord no matter what you say or do. He's YOUR Lord, no matter what you think.

2018-08-20 16:07:55 UTC  

You don't make him anything.

2018-08-20 16:07:56 UTC  

I am talking in the context of being a believer

2018-08-20 16:08:20 UTC  

Yes, Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords that's not what we're talking about

2018-08-20 16:08:26 UTC  

We are talking about the life of the believer

2018-08-20 16:08:33 UTC  

I'm talking about who he is.

2018-08-20 16:08:42 UTC  

Well that's not what we've been talking about

2018-08-20 16:09:11 UTC  

That's why we're still talking - because we lost each other on basic terms.

2018-08-20 16:09:53 UTC  

I'm happy to accept any term in the context it is used in the Authorised Version.

2018-08-20 16:10:20 UTC  

Lordship Salvation is a term which refers to a specific controversy which happened in North American evangelical churches

2018-08-20 16:10:28 UTC  

So let's not use it here as it's a distraction

2018-08-20 16:11:37 UTC  

Basically the issue at stake was whether when someone comes to saving faith Christ was only his saviour or also his lord in the sense that the believer was brought into conformity to the moral law, which is the old calvinist view as shown in the Westminster Standards. Some were denying that

2018-08-20 16:11:58 UTC  

We are brought into conformity with the law.

2018-08-20 16:12:04 UTC  

We are sanctified.

2018-08-20 16:12:08 UTC  

Of course Christ is Lord of lords but that wasn't the issue being debated

2018-08-20 16:12:19 UTC  

Yes that's what I've been saying!

2018-08-20 16:12:53 UTC  

But when Mr Lordship arrives, he says that he demands that you make a false promise to do works of the law, or you go to hell.

2018-08-20 16:13:32 UTC  

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

2018-08-20 16:13:43 UTC  

Either you believe in sanctification or you don't

2018-08-20 16:14:01 UTC  

I believe in 100% sanctification. 5% won't do, neither will 99.5%