Message from @Derde
Discord ID: 481133820368781322
He's Lord no matter what you say or do. He's YOUR Lord, no matter what you think.
You don't make him anything.
I am talking in the context of being a believer
Yes, Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords that's not what we're talking about
We are talking about the life of the believer
I'm talking about who he is.
Well that's not what we've been talking about
That's why we're still talking - because we lost each other on basic terms.
I'm happy to accept any term in the context it is used in the Authorised Version.
Lordship Salvation is a term which refers to a specific controversy which happened in North American evangelical churches
So let's not use it here as it's a distraction
Basically the issue at stake was whether when someone comes to saving faith Christ was only his saviour or also his lord in the sense that the believer was brought into conformity to the moral law, which is the old calvinist view as shown in the Westminster Standards. Some were denying that
We are brought into conformity with the law.
We are sanctified.
Of course Christ is Lord of lords but that wasn't the issue being debated
Yes that's what I've been saying!
But when Mr Lordship arrives, he says that he demands that you make a false promise to do works of the law, or you go to hell.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Either you believe in sanctification or you don't
We don't have 100% until we're in Heaven
I have 100% in heaven already. That's salvation.
Yes but you're not in Heaven you're on Earth
Yes, but I have it now in heaven, and I got it without an ounce of good works.
A believer has salvation which cannot be taken away from him. But he is not perfectly holy this side of eternity
Well I don't like this talk of "having it already in Heaven". We have salvation in Christ if He dwells within us by His Spirit. But we, our souls, will not be made perfect in holiness until we are in Heaven
We still have the carnal nature within us
The "reserved in heaven" of 1 Peter 1:4 says you should like this talk of having it already in heaven more.
Yeah ok, having an inheritance in Heaven. Yes I follow you now. Salvation has a slightly different connotation. We have an inheritance waiting for us in Heaven, but salvation is a lived experience now. Our souls are saved. We are regenerated. We do not go to Heaven and get clothed with salvation. We already have salvation. A perfect salvation because justification is perfect
But we are not perfectly holy.
In the sense of our own works. We are counted holy in Christ because his perfect righteousness is imputed to us
But in ourselves, and in our own actions, we are not perfectly holy. All we do is corrupted by our remaining sin
Yes, and his righteousness is imputed to us *if* we believe:
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
The trouble is that the lordship view says it is imputed if we make a false promise to care more about what we should be doing. That's not faith, but works, which will not save.
Well I wouldn't accept that characteristic of the Lordship position. My understanding is that what they are saying is that true faith is not merely believing a set of facts or mentally agreeing with a set of propositions. It is truly submitting to Christ, trusting in Him, following Him and striving to obey His commandments: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
It was a reaction to easy-believism which basically said if you agree with certain Biblical truths you're saved even if you continued living your life as you always did, committing sin, etc.
Is getting saved hard?
Christ did the hard part, you know.
If it's submitting, following, striving, obeying then it's not faith.
It's very hard. Indeed it impossible for man to save himself but with God all things are possible. But even "the righteous are scarecly saved". 1 Peter 4:18
Well, the righteous will scarecely be saved from the judgement of God