although i should clarify that girls are equally capable of filling that role

no they aren't. Theyre WAY more likely to

It's not even close

@Krille P. If you cannot predict an outcome with any level of certainty then why would you have any norm.
I'm not saying norms in all societies are always right, but they generally are better at putting out better outcomes in regards to Societal Sustainability than a society where everyone's bound to their whims without any direction.

More likely to assault their sexual partners and children

sure, in either case the relationship shouldnt be kept together just because of the kids because while i agree that the evidence shows that single parents are statistically less capable in providing the same outcomes for their kids, its far ahead of kids being raised in families where the environment is actively abusive

by allowing that relationship to end your cutting your losses

again, assault is already illegal and these people are arrested

none of this merits no fault divorce

this is a bait and switch, because some women are assaulted all women should be able to divorce and then suck funds from their ex husbands

Fathers are not expendable

Children are better off with fathers statistics prove this

@CronoSaturn

```@Gerçek im not predicating that assault precipitates all divorces but i dont think its unreasonable to think that if either party is forced to stay in a steadily deteriorating relationship, which you are clearly in if you are seeking a divorce, someone is very likely to become abusive```

I just don't see how you can be so confident in that every single case of divorce is legitimate since the alternative would always amount to violence not reconciliation, and that would be bad for the relationship.
I think you have the worst case scenario of a divorce in your head and you just think all of them are like that when they're not. A lot of Divorces are preventable, and there's no evidence to show that societies that don't allow Divorce at all are unsustainable.
Societies who are very Liberal with Divorce do appear to be Destructive.

so snake your suggesting the more positive outcome is we allow things to deteriorate to the point that someone has to be arrested and put in prison, in which case the child is raised in a single parent home, society has to pay to imprison that parent and they are no longer productive, just so you can be happy because you dont like divorce?

@Gerçek there are already significant measures to attempt reconciliation in the divorce process, if its unsuccessful and the person is still pushing for divorce it seems unrealistic that things can be patched up

Encouraging a culture where Marriage itself is seen as an Enterprise to create a Family and to raise kids i think is Healthy.
There are countless examples for people separating over the most selfish of reasons, "i want some change", "i wanted some space", entirely self serving without any regards to the Child i think is Toxic.

divorce is a lengthy and painful process where the person has to be pretty vehement and unco-operative towards looking at reconciliation, which also isnt really smiled on by the courts

Norms are not concsiously created for one part, and it does still not prove what you claim, norms are usually the result of necessity in an imediate situtaion and are often nothing more than a result of the material needs in the surrounding enviornment. People speculating about the resulut does not mean that they have any foresight. This is also the case of laws and morality, responses to imediate situations which we then makes a general law out of (the latter only applies to norms and morality as you can understand)

gercek its also unrealistic that the state can force people to care about their kids if they're so trivial as to purely want a divorce because they had a bad weekend

Im not talking about the State in any of this.

whatever measures the state could take to cure this are likely worse than the problem its trying to treat

thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though

It really isn't a separate conversation at all.. and the fact that there are people who think that these days tells you what the problem really is.

The issue with the rise in divorce rate is not just systemic but also Cultural.

I think I've said my piece. It's clear we won't see it the same way

Societies have gone to war over less

```thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though```


How does someone think that is honestly beyond me, you are thinking of children as separate from their parents. As if kids are detached from what goes on in the Family.
It's an absolutely bizarre way of thinking and calls into question the purpose of marriage and family building in the first place.

if a parent is going through a divorce proceeding without considering the kids clearly they consider themselves as seperate and i cant force my view onto them. I cant force people to be good parents and if they are determined in getting out i dont see any point in keeping a bad parent who hates being with their kids in that situation.

We live in a Society. @CronoSaturn

gamers rise up\

Yes you can. You can force people to change their behavior.

In fact they are doing that right now via financial incentives

People are divorcing more and marrying less.

i dont think its cost effective to try and pay people out to love their children and their are already significant financial incentives for marriage and kids

There's this thing called normative culture whereby people are able to remain within certain boundaries that ensure the survival of their Society and such that individuals live generally meaningful lives.
Now with his *you* don't have to *force* anybody.. a govt doesn't even come into the picture.
One important element of that is Family Building, and the societal shunning and shame associated with failure to do this, being Promiscuous or Unfaithful. We have slowly lost that in many important ways.. @CronoSaturn

I don't think it's cost effective for 50% of men who marry to pay alimony for life

which we agree on

and certainly people should be less slutty gercek

Here's a thought: punish people for bad behavior, and they will be less likely to do it. This is the basis of the justice system.

Punishment can actually include social shunning and shaming.