Message from @CronoSaturn

Discord ID: 533767459434528778


2019-01-12 21:05:48 UTC  

Well, we used to use the law to support the traditional family, then we delegated most of the job to social pressure trusting that was sufficient to keep families intact, but now they've fucked the culture so bad that this broke down

2019-01-12 21:06:09 UTC  

Now both the state and the culture are untied against the family

2019-01-12 21:10:48 UTC  

I will agree with you on removal of the welfare state, child support benefits, community property laws, alimony etc

2019-01-12 21:12:15 UTC  

but to provide positive material benefits to families to stay together or have more kids is to misunderstand the problem to begin with

2019-01-12 21:17:17 UTC  

2019-01-12 21:31:30 UTC  

@Gerçek it doesn't have to be some draconian situation like if you are a bad wife we shoot you

2019-01-12 21:31:57 UTC  

The point is people respond to incentives be they financial or otherwise

2019-01-12 21:32:54 UTC  

We should set up society to promote and facilitate men and women forming long term partnerships and producing/raising children as a unit

2019-01-12 21:34:07 UTC  

i think by reforming divorce to be more equitable and a bit of a cultural swing as things normalise thats 90% of the way there

2019-01-12 21:43:03 UTC  

"reforming divorce to be more equitable" you see there's your first problem.

2019-01-12 21:43:44 UTC  

Divorce shouldn't be equitable. They should grant custody to the parent who's better capable to raise the children, and the other party shouldn't have to pay. Easy.

2019-01-12 21:45:38 UTC  

2019-01-12 21:50:55 UTC  
2019-01-12 21:56:15 UTC  

@Deleted User so you'd be ok with deadbeats going around knocking people up and scampering off?

2019-01-12 21:57:51 UTC  

i think regardless of gender whoever takes care of the kid should receive money in line with what the other parents contribution costs them, adjusted for what role they had in the seperation

2019-01-12 21:59:38 UTC  

@CronoSaturn deadbeat?

2019-01-12 22:00:13 UTC  

the state should not be able to seize someone's money and transfer it to someone else in the name of equity

2019-01-12 22:00:25 UTC  

I respect property rights

2019-01-12 22:00:26 UTC  

its not an equity thing

2019-01-12 22:01:07 UTC  

Just because a man was wealthy upon having children shouldn't give his wife any right to rob him if she divorces him later on

2019-01-12 22:01:19 UTC  

you know that alot of the child support stuff had support from your tradcon types so that if theyre daughter gets knocked up by jack down the road he has to either marry or help pay for it yeah?

2019-01-12 22:01:26 UTC  

If she wants to enjoy his wealth, perhaps she shouldn't divorce him

2019-01-12 22:01:38 UTC  

right but child support is not tied to marriage

2019-01-12 22:01:50 UTC  

alimony is a seperate thing

2019-01-12 22:02:05 UTC  

Well, it depends on the sort of society we're setting up here. I assume you'd prefer a more liberal or libertarian society, yes?

2019-01-12 22:02:33 UTC  

absolutely but liberalism is a broad church and im not a libertarian

2019-01-12 22:02:39 UTC  

We could always ban sex outside of marriage, and punish law breakers, but I think you'd be offended

2019-01-12 22:02:57 UTC  

i would be, plus its ineffective

2019-01-12 22:03:12 UTC  

people have sex outside of marriage whether you like it or not

2019-01-12 22:03:14 UTC  

So alternatively, we could say if a woman becomes pregnant the child is hers. She is not entitled to any money from her boyfriend.

2019-01-12 22:03:27 UTC  

If she wants his financial assistance, she should marry him

2019-01-12 22:03:57 UTC  

the problem is she might want to marry him and he does not

2019-01-12 22:04:05 UTC  

After all, if we are to act like women are adults with the same agency as men then they can refrain from sleeping around and getting pregnant before marriage.

2019-01-12 22:04:19 UTC  

Then she should have the agency to not fuck him without a condom

2019-01-12 22:04:22 UTC  

this is the original problem child support sought to solve

2019-01-12 22:04:36 UTC  

right but he also can *say* baby ill take care of you

2019-01-12 22:04:47 UTC  

Yes, people lie

2019-01-12 22:04:54 UTC  

Lying is not a crime

2019-01-12 22:05:20 UTC  

If you want financial support you ought to enter into a contract with the other person, that's what marriage used to be

2019-01-12 22:05:33 UTC  

Only now the contract offers the man no protection

2019-01-12 22:05:37 UTC  

right but the law sees that as a reasonable expectation that if they then knock the girl up then there was an offer and acceptance