when an excess of food became avalible (farming) the oppertunity to persue other goals became present

well I guess I can see it.

religion in my mind is a product of civilization

if youre living with a few others, in a tight knit group, there isn't a need for ritual or belief to keep the cohesion

Farming means relying on each other for food > We must rely on each other to survive > Logically must come up with a morality that fosters group survival

The larger the group, the more you need a common factor to keep everyone in line

religion is a product of conecpts that cannot yet be ........rationalized..........explained.......understoood........sharable.......

But even nomadic tribes had large groups

i should ask what you consider a typical hunter/gatherer group size to be?

there were sun gods when we could not understand WHY the sun rose

probably anywhere from 10 to like 150

but in north america it was probably waaay more than that

hmm I take back my opinion then

i don't know what typical hunter/gatherer group size is. there are very few of them left now a days. we should look at them. maybe it would give us some ideas

I can see how religion can form even in small groups

well yeah of course

but there's an easy way to have a shared moral code without religion

I agree

the question is how far back religion formed? homo erectus?

We don't want to die -> must rely on each other to not die -> must also trust each other to not die -> don't harm or betray other members of your species

religion formed......what does that mean?

ooh and there's also the whole thing about intersubjectivity

when religion appeared

You talking about in general or monotheistic?

ok, so define religion?

like theology?

https://www.google.com/search?q=religion+definition

a group of ppl believing in a diety?

that one

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."

well animism existed for a really long time

shamanism too

I don't know if we can prove it but I bet belief in spirits in nature exists as far back as communication does

the bird knows when it rains, the worms will rise to the surface for easy feeding.........do the birds have a rain god.......is that a religion?

birds lack a concept of belief

more like pattern recognition

"The remains of one of the earliest anatomically modern humans to be cremated was buried near Lake Mungo." -40,000 BCE

I disagree, the bids belivie, that when it rains, there will be worms

so does belief = religion?

thats more my question

Thats biological instinct not belief