If not even America is willing to push for more freedom, what hope does humankind have as a whole?

The closest you will come to true freedom is a federalist, decentralized government, of which the liberty lovers are enabled to self-govern, while eliminating the mechanisms by which feed the power of the artful few to impose upon the many. You will find a taste of true freedom in Washington's Farewell Address of 1796.

I don't think any federation can defend freedom

American federalism is also by design, just as any other, but it retains the greatest freedom for one to govern oneself. We've strayed from federalism, and that is the problem, the interests of few districts infringing upon those of hundreds.

You can't be "allowed" to self-govern, you either do or you don't. If you need to be allowed, then you're not self-governed.

It's not a matter of being allowed, it's a matter of retaining a system that cannot violate your ability to self-govern, one we do not have as we continue to stray away from federalism.

I'm not sure why you're talking about this as a "few vs many" situation

The many, the few, it doesn't matter

Did you not read what I wrote, regarding the 17th Amendment?

Look

Whether few infringe on many, or many infringe on few, it's the same thing

Morally speaking

The many cannot infringe upon the few under American federalism, nor can the few upon the many; that's the point.

Unless you're a utilitarian, in which case I'd love to have a debate about the meaning of numbers

I'm not a fan of utilitarianism, and if I was, I'd be an anti-federalist and side with Wilsonian-populism.

Well ok, so no one should infringe on anything or anyone, right?

Correct. If a commune wishes to practice an internalized and isolated iteration of socialism; fine. This is about leaving people to live according to how they see fit, as it was meant to be. As I said, the economic interests of a firm in New York should have no sway upon 25 other Senators from fly-over country, in seeking a regulation that secures a monopoly for them, yet leaves the constituency disadvantaged within those other States and Districts, with their entrepreneurs unable to enter and compete in various industries relating to those regulated on behalf of those interests in New York.

Anyway, I've got to get going.

Why would you be anti-federal if you were utilitarian?

I've got to take a family member in for surgery, so we'll pick this up in the future.

Because the needs of the many should trump those of the few, if you're a utilitarian.

I’m utilitarian and I believe the federal state is the best way to achieve my aims.

Federalism is anti to federal state.

I know the words seem to confuse people, as they assume the meaning behind them.

Anyway, taking off!

I'm also very confused by this argument

Mine, or his?

His

I'm not utilitarian in principle, but I think I understand correctly that federalism and utilitarianism go very much hand in hand, and separating them seems very odd

I do understand however why federalism may be anti federal state

Not neccessarily anti, but... also not neccessarily pro

It would allow those federal states to exist and give people more localised control, but what powers the states have and how they’re managed, etc is up for debate. For sure.

Right, so federalism wouldn't be anti federal state, just anti... radical self-governance

Yes.

It’s obviously more centralised than I imagine he would like.

I mean, what one would like or wouldn't like is a tough question for a debate in itself (for example you're utilitarian, and I'm mostly anti-utilitarian, with virtually no exceptions, and this would certainly cause a heated exchange of opinions), but at least when discussing these things, how these principles overlap should certainly be understood first

As I understand it, its in the very nature of federalism to see people as numbers, not as beings to respect equally under all circumstances

Yeah agreed. You need a base understanding, somewhere to stand and then build from.

And I put no emphasis on "equally", but on "respect"

A federation, by its very nature, does not respect man, unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding about that

It certainly does not respect a man's freedom

It depends on the federation and what it has in place. A constitution can be used to ensure rights / freedoms of citizens for example.