Message from Myndrian in Literature Club #evolution

2017-12-22 02:49:18 UTC  

The 10,000 Year Explosion by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending

2018-12-26 15:12:24 UTC  

Is this the next book?

2018-12-26 15:12:32 UTC  

Or are you guys already on it?

2018-12-28 18:45:54 UTC  

This paper is David Sloan Wilson and EO Wilson’s 30 page paper on the return of group selection. It is interesting to note people like (((Steven Pinker)))have opposed group selection pretty adamantly from what I know. It is a slippery slope from Group selection to Kevin Macdonald. Honestly, it’s only like 1 thought process away after that. Group selection is being accepted because of people like David Wilson and we shall see if people start eyeing Kevin Macdonald’s work even more warily

2018-12-28 18:46:37 UTC  

Applying group selection to human communities isn’t that crazy after group selection is mainstream in evolutionary biology

2018-12-30 00:05:04 UTC  

“According to Turchin (2003, 2005) virtually all empires arose in geographical areas where major ethnic groups came into contact with each other. Intense between-group conflict acted as a crucible for the cultural evolution of extremely cooperative societies, which then expanded at the expense of less cooperative societies...”

2018-12-30 00:06:32 UTC  

This is significant in relation to the JQ. We haven’t gone through that crucible yet, we are now at least, so we just aren’t genetically equipped unless we can culturally program ourselves to compensate. Is that possible? Idk, but it seems the Middle East was just such a crucible to create some empires and create group that were refined by group selection.

2018-12-30 04:36:24 UTC  

That’s almost counter intuitive given what we know about homogenous societies being more successful. It’s like successful, homogenous societies arise because of struggle with a lesser, heterogenous society

2018-12-30 05:23:58 UTC  

Ya maybe it was homogenous societies warring against each other. They are a very ethnically minded people. I’m sure having a homogenous society helps breed success, but then put them against another ethnicity and that competition maybe fuels empires

2018-12-30 05:24:23 UTC  

I refer to the Middle East when I say “they are a very ethnically minded people.”

2018-12-30 15:24:42 UTC  

It sort of makes sense to me - wouldn't it be rather difficult to expand without an empire to rule over all these different people? Wouldn't an empire give them something to unite under?

Also, we can't forget one of the major reasons the great Roman Empire fell was due to these very reasons. They simply grew too large and no longer had money or war to unite them under a single banner.

2018-12-30 19:59:05 UTC  

inclusive fitness and reciprocal altruism evolution are a lot more plausible than group selection

2018-12-30 19:59:44 UTC  

for Turchin, he is talking about state evolution, not genetic selection for traits

2018-12-30 20:02:43 UTC  

From what I’ve been reading it’s not either or

2018-12-30 20:02:56 UTC  

his argument is that states on "metaethnic frontiers" are able to reduce rights and privileges of groups in their state and mobilize more resources, enabling them to dominate less efficient states

2018-12-30 20:03:00 UTC  

It’s group selection should be considered as to contributing to some of the mutation in some groups

2018-12-30 20:04:11 UTC  

Like Macdonald’s proposal of how Jews erect genetic barriers and differential reproduction within groups has decreased because of monogamy, probably a significant event in to contributing to more cooperation and adding more differential reproduction between groups instead of within

2018-12-30 20:06:31 UTC  

So the instituting of monogamy seems like evidence of group selection. Also Jewish behavior’s seems like very good evidence of “group evolutionary strategies” being enacted

2018-12-30 20:08:02 UTC  

I’d like to hear your take on it though, that is why I posted that paper at the top by David Wilson and EO Wilson cause I’m still trying to figure what is the most accurate view of reality

2018-12-30 20:09:03 UTC  

I just don't get how there is selection at the group level genetically. Sure socially, culturally, and politically, but not genetically

2018-12-30 20:09:31 UTC  

creatures where group selection occurs are usually eusocial, like ants or bees

2018-12-30 20:10:59 UTC  

hamilton's rule comes into play here

2018-12-30 20:11:14 UTC  

I think it can happen at the group level for humans cause most of the propositions by David Sloan Wilson is that the compositions of groups matter. For example, the simple saying of selfish individuals best altruists but a group of altruists in theory would beat a group of selfish individuals. So at least group selection could have a say in the composition or the frequency of strategies in groups. coordinating mechanisms which would happen at a genetic level such as ethnocentrism would matter also

2018-12-30 20:12:56 UTC  

What’s Hamilton’s rule?

2018-12-30 20:13:23 UTC  

Oh ok inclusive fitness

2018-12-30 20:14:02 UTC  

I agree that inclusive fitness is real but it can be unified with ethnocentric or genetic similarity theory; you interact with those that look like you

2018-12-30 20:14:24 UTC  

Whites are more comfortable and trustworthy among whites, not just their immediate and extended family

2018-12-30 20:15:01 UTC  

So I guess they are proposing an even longer chain of inclusive fitness with some hard demarcation points; racism. Some people really won’t trade or economically interact or reproduce with another race