Message from Nemets in Literature Club #tir


2018-12-29 02:09:55 UTC  

@Nemets What made you pick up this book in particular? I'm trying to dig into European history on the whole but it's hard to know what's worth reading and what's not.

2018-12-29 02:12:23 UTC  

if it's 600+ pages and the 1 star reviews on amazon aren't about formatting errors or freudianism it's usually at least half decent @Mick

2018-12-29 02:13:33 UTC  

@Nemets Yikes. Guess so. What do you think of the book so far?

2018-12-29 02:14:13 UTC  

How is it written? Is it tough to read, meaning, maybe a little dry?

2018-12-29 02:14:38 UTC  

I'm enjoying it, but it is pretty academic

2018-12-29 02:15:13 UTC  

Ok with academic, that can be written in a way to keep you reading imo.

2018-12-29 02:16:27 UTC  

I'm very inexperienced with Russia, does it get into what it means to be Russian wrt ethnicity?

2018-12-29 02:16:55 UTC  

I'm only 7% into it so far - but a lot of it is past the arrival of ryurik

2018-12-29 02:17:20 UTC  

I don't know if ethnic conflict was later, obviously soviet era

2018-12-29 02:17:33 UTC  

was a big deal

2018-12-29 02:17:43 UTC  

oh, ok.

2018-12-29 02:18:50 UTC  

I've always been curious about the history of the various groups that fell under Russian influence

2018-12-29 02:19:25 UTC  

how those groups formed, how they interacted with Russian influence and power, etc.

2018-12-29 02:19:37 UTC  

Ryurik?

2018-12-29 02:19:48 UTC  

Viking?

2018-12-29 02:20:28 UTC  

he was a viking of finnish background that united a lot of slavs and founded Rus'

2018-12-29 02:20:57 UTC  

his descendants would rule russia until the death of Ivan IV "The Terrible"

2018-12-29 02:21:50 UTC  

Ok. Ivan was the first Czar, so he was of Viking decent? I though Ivan was the beginning of a new era in Russian rule and culture...?

2018-12-29 02:22:11 UTC  

I've got some learning to do.

2018-12-29 02:22:28 UTC  

russians are a mixture of a lot of different peoples, just like americans

2018-12-29 02:23:04 UTC  

slavs are the main group, but they have a lot of finnic and ugrian ancestry, with a sprinkling of tatar and german

2018-12-29 02:23:18 UTC  

That's my very elementary understanding. I was just under the impression Ivan was the beginning and not the end of an era

2018-12-29 02:23:36 UTC  

in a lot of ways he was

2018-12-29 02:23:47 UTC  

he was both...?

2018-12-29 02:23:51 UTC  

yeah

2018-12-29 02:23:52 UTC  

can you calrify?

2018-12-29 02:23:56 UTC  

oh

2018-12-29 02:24:05 UTC  

probably a lot to clarify, haha

2018-12-29 02:24:21 UTC  

don't mean to ask for a history lesson haha

2018-12-29 02:24:29 UTC  

no problem

2018-12-29 02:25:15 UTC  

after mongols destroyed kiev and a lot of principalities, base of russian civilization shifted north of the forest line to places where nomadic hordes were less capable of attacking

2018-12-29 02:25:55 UTC  

moscow was a very loyal servant of the mongols, and gained a lot in power and wealth relatively during that time

2018-12-29 02:26:29 UTC  

by the 15th century, the mongols were destroying themselves through fighting between descendants of genghis khan and new warlords

2018-12-29 02:26:42 UTC  

so moscow was able to retake a lot of territory that had been lost

2018-12-29 02:27:08 UTC  

a lot of the various principalities had their own identities at that time, and regularly rebelled against moscow

2018-12-29 02:28:29 UTC  

Ivan IV is pretty famous for sacking novgorod, a major city that had its own identity, and he played an even larger role in his grandfather Ivan III in promoting russian identity in the territories he controlled

2018-12-29 02:28:57 UTC  

as time went on, the various principalities gradually lost their identities and became russians

2018-12-29 02:29:57 UTC  

however certain places like galicia and volhynia remained outside of russian control until 1945, and never adopted a russian identity, and instead kept their old identities as part of the old principalities. These identities became the modern ukrainian identity

2018-12-29 02:32:16 UTC  

so Ivan IV was part of a broader trend of centralization and russification that continued until 1917, but was exceptionally good at it

2018-12-29 02:32:42 UTC  

but he was still part of the old system in a lot of ways

2018-12-29 02:32:47 UTC  

hope that makes sense