I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?
If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same
Intent isn't what predestination says
You can't just use the word in a different sense
Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.
As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.
Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.
Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%
We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up
I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.
I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.
Yes, that makes sense.
Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?
You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.
Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend
IQ is both but this is irrelevant
As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.
But, he did give us free will.
Predetermined is fine
It's only to a degree though
@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own
I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can
Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you
I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real
I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.
@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.
Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable
I'm not saying we can or have to know
Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid
You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'
I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in
@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us
Not necessarily - both can exist to some extent. The idea being that God had created those predestined to go to heaven to be of a certain character, whereby though they have free will, they will naturally not act in a blatantly immoral way, regardless of outside pressures.
No they can't
Calvinism believes that a soul is destined for heaven or hell determined at or prior to birth
Yes but how does that dispute what I just said?
meaning you either believe
1: Free will does not exist and this person will not be immoral.
2: It does not matter if this person is immoral in life, free will can exist, but they will do whatever they want and still get in.
What you will try to do now is say that it's number 1 but the character traits of the individual are the ones that determine how they act but you can't do this
As I just said - those predestined to go to Heaven will be of a certain character, that despite the fact that they have a relative level of autonomy and freedom, they will choose to follow a more moral/righteous path. Having free will does not inherently mean that you will do whatever the fuck you want without a sense of morality.
It means that you can though
and if you can there is no way to say that this person is predestined for heaven or hell
unless the person's actions don't matter