Messsage from Thomas in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

SGL 2018-01-16 17:10:48  

Of course you can. Otherwise why would humans be moral at all? If they are ascertained to not be one of the 'chosen few' then why do they not use their autonomy to live a hedonistic lifestyle? Because one can never truly know whether one is or isn't part of said chosen few and as such it's in one's best interest to act in a moral way.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:10:51  

I'm saying it is outlined in our religious texts specifically, that he did give us agency, but at the same time he does have some sort of intent, a plan.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:10:52  

You're talking about 2 things were consider that are mutually exclusive

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:10:57  

A type of predestination.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:11:09  

But exclusively believing in predestination is wrong as well.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:11:17  

Larp you need to look up what predestination is.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:11:31  

Because it would imply that a certain number of individuals were made with the intent of going directly to hell.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:11:34  

Okay sure a plan but that's not what you said originally Thomas

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:12:46  

Predestination is the idea that some people all people are created and it is predestined whether or not they will ascend. This is 100% in contradiction with free will

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:13:02  

Why are they mutually exclusive? Why are the concepts of an all knowing being having an intent for the universe, yet simultaneously giving some aspects of his creations free will mutually exclusive?

SGL 2018-01-16 17:13:15  

I know what predestination is - but does predestination imply that humans are mindless robots who don't have influence in how they reach their end destination?

If I have to drive from my home to my work, there are hundreds, if not thousands of possible routes I could take - the end destination will still be the same

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:17  

Intent isn't what predestination says

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:45  

You can't just use the word in a different sense

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:13:58  

Predestination says the destination of the soul is predetermined.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:07  

As in you either ascend to heaven or don't.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:14:21  

Alright.. Then predestination is the wrong word. Then God's intent. But imagine being in control over literally every aspect of creation, and not being able to directly influence the time around it or the events which take place in it.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:35  

Yeah I agree with you when we talk about intent 100%

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:14:54  

We were originally talking about Calvinism though that's where the discussion sprang up

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:16:17  

I'm not a Calvinist, but if I was a Calvinist I would argue that God predetermined some peoples to be the carriers of his will, and predestined other tribes to be obstacles in the way of the chosen peoples. He created some people for the express purpose of opposing him and his people. Some people being almost like NPCs, just there to fill up space.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:16:23  

I'm not a Deist, nor am I a Calvinist. Mostly because I think that such concepts can in a sense be dually applied.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:16:35  

Yes, that makes sense.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:16:47  

Shinjitsu, do you think iq is an inherent thing? I.e. genetic. Or do you believe that iq is environment - based?

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:14  

You're applying to religious doctrine something that does not line up with it.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:17:25  

Yeah Simon that's the thing though you are saying free will doesn't exist if it's predetermined whether or not they will go to heaven. Either that or they can do ANYTHING they want in life and still ascend

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:17:40  

IQ is both but this is irrelevant

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:51  

As we just said, obviously some aspects of the world are in fact predetermined. As set out by the consequences which God has laid before us.

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:17:59  

But, he did give us free will.

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:18:16  

Predetermined is fine

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:18:26  

It's only to a degree though

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:19:04  

@shinjitsu in that scenario, I would argue that free will is an illusion of the human mind, that we just simply perceive our actions as completely our own

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:06  

I highly suggest you read the gay science. He goes into everything we're talking about much better than j can

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:19  

Okay you could argue that but no Christians will agree with you

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:19:37  

I tend to believe that but for the sake of the argument we assumed agency is real

Thomas 2018-01-16 17:20:36  

I still disagree to that predestination is a total end all be all. You can have extents of predestination.

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:22:43  

@shinjitsu I'm only arguing from a highly theoretical abstract place, don't completely believe in predetermination, nor do I believe completely in free will.

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:13  

Again, though you may not agree, Shinjitsu, trying to ascertain with 100% what God's motives are is akin to trying to determine the value of infinity - it's trying to know the un-knowable

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:23:31  

I'm not saying we can or have to know

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:35  

Hence why when I said that I cannot know because I'm not God, it is completely valid

SGL 2018-01-16 17:23:58  

You did though, you posed the problem 'why would God make shit people'

shinjitsu 2018-01-16 17:24:08  

I'm saying if you believe in Calvinism you believe that either free will doesn't exist, or that people who are going to be going to heaven can do whatever immoral thin they want and still get in

Simon Sasquatch 2018-01-16 17:25:14  

@SGL I agree, God's internal motivations can only be determined as so far as he reveals them to us