Message from shinjitsu in Nick Fuentes Server #catholic-poasting-no-cultural-christians-allowed

2018-01-16 17:32:24 UTC  

I.e. they have freedom, but choose to use said freedom to follow His doctrines

2018-01-16 17:32:29 UTC  

Of course you can

2018-01-16 17:32:40 UTC  

because it is determined *prior to their actions* whether or not they go to heaven

2018-01-16 17:32:59 UTC  

As I said - the idea is that God is omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:13 UTC  

This is just logically false

2018-01-16 17:33:16 UTC  

He knows what their actions will be prior to them carrying them out

2018-01-16 17:33:20 UTC  

you can not give free will while remaining omniscient

2018-01-16 17:33:41 UTC  

Of course you can. The idea isn't that God is forcing people to act a certain way

2018-01-16 17:33:49 UTC  

Because if it is known what you will do, then it is predetermined what you will do, and you have no agency

2018-01-16 17:33:59 UTC  

no you are just flat out wrong here there isn't even an argument to make.

2018-01-16 17:34:06 UTC  

The idea is that God knows how people will act anyway

2018-01-16 17:34:25 UTC  

You are still the agent carrying out said actions

2018-01-16 17:34:28 UTC  

No that's wrong. This is accepted by wrong by every philosopher even religious ones

2018-01-16 17:34:40 UTC  

*You* are the one making the choices, not God

2018-01-16 17:34:57 UTC  

No it doesn't matter. If he **knows** what actions you will tkae prior to you making them. Then there is **no** way to say you could have chosen otherwise.

2018-01-16 17:35:18 UTC  

This is not up for debate, this is widely accepted as problem by people you probably agree with

2018-01-16 17:35:49 UTC  

In this scenario free will is an illusion

2018-01-16 17:36:10 UTC  

It's why Calvinism (specifically predestination) is wrong and where these disagreements come from

2018-01-16 17:36:35 UTC  

Of course there is. If God is all knowing - as described in the Bible, then He will know all possible actions you could take throughout your life - I.e. there is still a level of personal input necessary. God doesn't force people to do anything - he merely observes.

2018-01-16 17:36:44 UTC  

No wait

2018-01-16 17:36:56 UTC  

*possible actions* is not the same as saying knowing which actions the person will take

2018-01-16 17:37:00 UTC  

Thus it's still *your* choices, but God knows what choices you make.

2018-01-16 17:37:10 UTC  

Prior to you making them?

2018-01-16 17:37:49 UTC  

Just yes or no prior to you making them, does God know what decision you will make? In your opinion

2018-01-16 17:39:02 UTC  

If an entity is all knowing it will know everything - possible actions as well as what actions will be taken. God knows that humans have a level of autonomy and as such their actions are of their own volition - God, however, still knows what path the individual will take.

Again, the idea is that God is omniscient, but not necessarily interventionist in the paths of individuals

2018-01-16 17:39:34 UTC  

It's akin to being able to go see all possible universes at the same time

2018-01-16 17:39:40 UTC  


2018-01-16 17:39:41 UTC  

It's not

2018-01-16 17:39:46 UTC  

because the soul is predestined to heaven or hell

2018-01-16 17:39:59 UTC  

Yes or no, does God know what action you will make before you make it?

2018-01-16 17:40:11 UTC  

Predestined by whom? God.

2018-01-16 17:40:15 UTC  


2018-01-16 17:40:25 UTC  

This is literally the central tenant of Calvinism

2018-01-16 17:40:34 UTC  

As I stated earlier - God knows what actions individuals will take, correct?

2018-01-16 17:40:40 UTC  

This is what you think

2018-01-16 17:40:55 UTC  

Well obviously you don't think so since you don't believe in God

2018-01-16 17:41:12 UTC  

Specifically here though, if God knows what action will be taken, free will doesn't exist.

2018-01-16 17:41:44 UTC  

And then calvinism is fine and a working theory

2018-01-16 17:41:46 UTC  

Except it does because God isn't the one influencing what actions will be taken

2018-01-16 17:41:56 UTC  

He doesn't have to bne

2018-01-16 17:42:09 UTC  

if the decision is predetermined, then you don't have free will.