@Nicholas István We were founded on the principle of Protestantism and freedom of religion, furthermore, such a faith dictates that the founders of my country, a thing that by my own moral obligation I am in essence required to love, are in hell. Along with all of my ancestors who came here. I do not want to put anything before God, but rather I want to find the best means to honor him, and as of these last five hundred years I've not many ideas as to how we would go about such a thing with the options we have. Not only that but I see the creeds which are attracted to Catholicism and which have stuck with it traditionally, and of them the only admirable ones I can find are the Southern Germans, the Western Slavs, the Celtic peoples, and perhaps the French and Italians.

These make up an insignificant minority in contrast to those other people who compose it's faithful ranks. This is again where another conflict comes to mind. Many of the supposed theological conclusions of the church aren't derived from the bible. I believe much of it, but something like purgatory isn't directly mentioned at all. I'm inclined to believe such a thing but I am unsure.

@Thomas "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily.

@IAmHiding good shit

makes me like the catholic theology over orthodox

@here MEDITATE ON HELL

In the Catholic faith would the founders of America be damned to hell? @here

Yea

Most likely, as none of them were catholics and they were masons

you can never know for sure though

Sounds pretty gay

Religion is the opiate of the people

We need opiates

Yeah I'd take an epidemic of the people being hopped up on christ rather than on heroin any day

It’s official boys. I joined.

Album: https://imgur.com/a/jSrgO

There's more in memetics too.

Wouldn't Catholic principles clash greatly with American principles?

@here

What came first, the Church or America?

And which takes primacy, God or ideology?

God always takes supremacy over ideology. Which is why such a thing would come into contrast with America. Wouldn't it be in the church's best interest if America were non-existent? The fact that it exists at all ought to be considered tantamount to heresy.

@Nicholas István

If someone asked me to renounce either my faith or my country, I'd renounce country. But that is wholly irrelevant.

@Thomas american principles are bad

america is built upon the enlightment and the enlightenment was a mistake

Then why should we support its traditions? Its heritage? If it's founded exclusively on heresy, then why should we even wish to preserve the traditions of such a thing?

its not exculsive, but its important to realize that americana has its flaws and thus something that goes against it inst exactly horrible

conservatism based on just remkaing the past cant happen we can only build a better future

Wouldn't that be considered putting primacy into a nation over God?

?

If you're trying to culturally preserve something that is deemed rhetorically toxic to the universal faith, would that not be considered heretical?

@here Anyone? I'm not trying to debate. this is messing with my head and I don't know if I should even support America as an idea anymore.

I mean I'm serious, we shouldn't have free speech as it pertains to ungodly behavior, we shouldn't have freedom of religion, we shouldn't have separation of church and state. All these things are against Catholic ideas and and principles. And yet as American traditionalists we fight to preserve them. What's more the people who made the country, were by definition heretics.

Why should we wish to preserve this idea, this nation at all?

I've been thinking about this very issue a lot lately, it's a complicated question that will be difficult to solve, further complicated by the fact that the 'overton window' is so far to the left right now. Until then, we could start by considering that America should be loved more as a people and land, and less as a creed, idea or ideology.

One source we can gain some insight is Pope Leo XIII's encyclical *Testem benevolentiae nostrae*, which addresses this topic to an extent.