Message from @Mephisto

Discord ID: 485488834092597248


2018-09-01 06:27:09 UTC  

So do you view the mass changes as valid or invalid?

2018-09-01 06:28:51 UTC  

Lol well that's not what Quo Primum said

2018-09-01 06:31:04 UTC  

Quo Primum said that every Priest had the right to celebrate the Tridentine liturgy in perpetuity

Paul 6 in his correspondance with Archbishop Lefebvre argued that his legislation Novus Ordo Missae Romanum had abrogated (meaning replaced) Quo Primum

Now whether or not that is true today is entirely irrelevent because as per Benedict 16's Summorum Pontificum the Latin Rite has the right to practice the Liturgy in both the Tridentine (extraordianry) and Pauline (Novus Ordo) forms

2018-09-01 06:31:30 UTC  

Now I don't know what the hell "unfailing magisterium is" but I'll tell you what I tell everyone else about this

2018-09-01 06:33:54 UTC  

John 23rd said this was not an infallible council
Paul 6 said that this was not an infallible council
Benedict 16 said that wherever the council appeared to contradict previous teaching go with the previous teaching, furthermore he stated that changes had actually been made however he argued that the changes that the council had made (such as on disposition to other religions) had never been dogmatically defined anyway, and that the teachings of the councils weren't dogmatic either making them a matter of opinion. This is sort of the sticking point of the Holy See's with the SSPX, the SSPX say they can't do that but the Holy See says the SSPX cannot tell Catholics especially not the Holy See that they cannot believe in the teachings from say *Dignitatis Humanae* because these are issues of private judgement with no dogmatic teaching

2018-09-01 06:34:12 UTC  

Moreover

2018-09-01 06:34:33 UTC  

Quo Primum is not an infallible statement of anything it's a Papal Bull which is an article of Canon Law

2018-09-01 06:36:13 UTC  

When we talk about encyclicals or bulls or anything like that, these documents are only infallible insofar as they are communicating infallible definitions which are either defined by Popes speaking Ex Cathedra or Councils which have been given the authority of infallibility by the Pope

2018-09-01 06:38:25 UTC  

Okay thank you this is the first answer I've gotten which hasn't been full of sedeposting. This is very helpful, I appreciate it

2018-09-01 06:40:42 UTC  

You're welcome. A lot of the Sede polemmics are from a different era where these questions were more open

2018-09-01 06:41:20 UTC  

Today they are pretty open and shut, I mean since Vatican 1 we've had very strict definitions of what constitutes Church infallibility so Catholics should have no excuse in being unable to explain it

2018-09-01 06:42:55 UTC  

Thanks, I will look into all of this more, its good to have a consistent answer though

2018-09-01 06:43:28 UTC  

Our Ecclesiology and doctrine on when and how the Church is infallible is a hell of a lot more consistent than the Orthodox have it's a damn shame that they catch so many Catholics off guard with their polemmics

2018-09-01 06:44:28 UTC  

Yeah it seems a lot more bottom up than top down with them, with their idea of theosis and whatnot

2018-09-01 06:44:38 UTC  

Catholic Ecclesiology is quite simple really, the true Church is whoever is in visible communion with the Pope of Rome, anyone who is barred from that communion or refuses it is outside the Church. Orthodox Ecclesiology is so much more convoluted it's not clear at all to me why they should even consider the Latin Church schismatic at all

2018-09-01 06:46:42 UTC  

The centralized authority of the Catholic Church as well as the clarity in its doctrine always appealed to me more. The Orthodox stuff only appeals to me for superficial reasons and looks appealing when i have severe doubts, but I'm never really able to accept any of it
I'm going to bed now but thanks again for the help, night

2018-09-01 06:50:26 UTC  

The Orthodox have an amazing ascetic tradition

2018-09-01 06:50:36 UTC  

They have a severely underdeveloped intellectual tradition

2018-09-01 16:15:52 UTC  

@Mephisto Well we believe in theosis too we just typically don't call it such. Deification is the word I hear the most.

2018-09-01 16:22:50 UTC  

The Orthodox and the Catholic faith is not nearly so different as people would have you think. Where we differ is in Ecclesiology which is to say what constitutes the Church and how the Church functions.

2018-09-01 16:39:17 UTC  

I could be wrong but I thought Catholics believed deification occurs after death whereas Orthodox believe Theosis is a process that occurs across one's life. Because of that relationship with God they believe that the Church can be determined by those who truly have the relationship and thats essentially how they get away with not having a pope or central authority. The ultimate authority of their Church doesnt come from infallible leadership but the sum of individuals undergoing theosis with God. It sounded not too unlike protestantism which is part of what turned me off to it

2018-09-02 13:37:13 UTC  

can i get a quick rundown on jesuits

2018-09-02 13:41:18 UTC  

homos

2018-09-02 15:23:41 UTC  

Is meditating solely for focus blasphemy?

2018-09-02 15:32:02 UTC  

No

2018-09-02 15:32:16 UTC  

Can't see why it would be

2018-09-02 18:11:09 UTC  

Went to Latin mass for the first time today, it was chad and the priest was a chad too

2018-09-02 18:11:27 UTC  

<:chad:402359917819985931> <:grug:420405237019443203>

2018-09-02 18:11:58 UTC  

Go to mass fellas

2018-09-02 22:55:49 UTC  

Fellas

2018-09-02 22:57:48 UTC  

Big feel right now. The qt at work I’ve been flirting with for the last two weeks just told me that she’s ‘pansexual’ and now I want nothing to do with her. Hurts though; we get along great, my type, the first girl I’ve started to develop feelings for in a long time.

2018-09-02 22:58:22 UTC  

Anyone got any good articles, bible verses or literally anything at all to help me rage against modernity and cheer me up

2018-09-02 23:03:12 UTC  

When I read this I immediately thought of Galatians 4:16

2018-09-02 23:35:15 UTC  

What means... that I shouldn’t judge her for telling me?

2018-09-02 23:42:44 UTC  

omg then I come home from the beach to my new roommate cooking with a literal 50 year old black woman

2018-09-02 23:42:53 UTC  

wtf is happening to me

2018-09-03 00:28:23 UTC  

Women are full of shit I would just tell ask her to explain what pansexual means and then just say "so your not into guys then"

2018-09-03 00:28:34 UTC  

Judge by her reaction then

2018-09-03 00:30:11 UTC  

Then maybe say well you're Catholic so all that stuff seems pretty overly complicated for your tastes

2018-09-03 00:30:27 UTC  

And judge by the reaction you get there

2018-09-03 00:31:23 UTC  

Have some pity for the girl she's been brainwashed since she was young, but if she gets defensive just deescalate for workplace harmony and move on