The truth is that we do want to MAGA. We just realize exactly what that means

Where you at?

@Deleted User Thank you for your service. Hold the line.

o7

To be honest, no, I don't see it as a massive improvement, because illegals are a very small factor in the equation for when we become a minority. Do I see it as a small improvement? In some cases.

I'd go as far to say that civic nationalism can be a destructive force at times, because it creates a false sense of security. "lol we stopped illegal immigration we can get complacent now while legal immigrants replace us"

I'm not arguing that we should be edgelords and alienate civnats, I'm arguing that we should try to move them to our side rather than just become them.

Amish gang rise up

I love the Amish

I'm a bit biased on this since I've had a lot of bad experiences with civnats, including Proud Boys literally collaborating with Antifa to dox me

@Jacob whoa, that's bonkers!

Ya, I'm not making that up, and I'm willing to elaborate if needed

I believe you.

@Jacob Nobody here is arguing that we should become civnats. If, however, gaining real power and influence within institutions like the GOP requires it, we should pretend to be on an individual level though perhaps

White Taqiyya

You know what I mean.

MAGA in the streets, something else in the sheets

I would rather not become what I despise...

I'm OK with a strategic alliance with civnats for now, but of course don't just capitulate to them, actively try to bring them to our side

@TMatthews A lot of people in this movement do argue that we should promote civic nationalism instead of identitarianism, and just kinda sit around and wait for civic nationalism to win out, and *then* promote identitarianism. We've had former IE members like this.

former...

I don't know, could still be some

I.E. has the hard-earned privilege and responsibility of being the least-weird far-right group

Look, I just think the whole "civnats are 80% there" talk is really dangerous

Based laundry.

@Freiheit - CA Is that a flag, fren?

Yeh

@Jacob STOP BEING AN IDEOLOGUE, bro. **IDEOLOGUES ALWAYS LOSE** <- if you take anything to heart that I say tonight, take that with you.

Ideologues. Always. Lose.

The greatest political thinkers and strategists of all time worked within their political paradigm to achieve actual goals.

MAGA/Civnat is implicitly Identitarian - very obviously so - why else would the globalist elites be so afraid of it.

@Jacob I don't agree with that model. That's part of why I opposed renaming IE something more American in a debate here before. What I mean is more that, for example, I'm an officer in my college republicans and couldn't have gotten there if I revealed my power level

We shouldn't get complacent and think that civic nationalism will accomplish absolutely anything. The truth is, they're maybe 20% there at best, and they're destructive at worst. We should appeal to them, pretend to be them at times, but never assume they will accomplish anything alone.

It's up to us to corral and harness that energy into something EXPLICITLY identitarian 10-15 years down the line

@TMatthews Ya I agree that we should hide our power levels at times

@Deleted User You make a valuable point. The radical / 'extreme' leaders of the past harnessed the spirit of their people *at their time*, and then slowly channeled it in directions.

We should still talk to civnats at places like CPAC and push our ideals. We can help them in mainstream politics AND grow identitarianism simultaneously

@Deleted User What do you consider being an ideologue?

@Jacob Civic nationalism, instated TOMORROW. Would result in 11+ MILLION less central americans in our country with the snap of a finger.

and then we press for more.

Right, which is why I'd still vote for Trump given the choice

I guess the big issue is the dynamic of negotiation itself. We're told to ask for more than we'll get. We ask for civ nat, get even less. If we ask for identitarianism, could we get civNat?

Friendly reminder that Trump attacked Cruz very successfully in the primaries for expanding H1b. The average Republican wants less legal immigration

The problem is, if we wait until later to press for more, these ideas will just be forgotten by that point. That's why we need to promote more *now*.

It is such a delicate balance. How to open the Window without breaking it open or shutting it