not the nation

By the same logic if a member seeks to undermine the group itself then other members should condemn the rebel for undermining group cohesion

Being loyal to China isn't the same as being loyal to the Communist Party.

oh

this is an even worse point, razor

Mexicans are loyal to neither the United States or the United States Government

Right, so I'm an American

Should I be loyal to other ethnic Americans?

eh, too vague

Supposing I'm a German

should I be loyal to other ethnic germans?

Yes, you should prefer Germans to other people.

However this only applies to groups that are advantageous for the members. If membership is disadvantageous then the benefits of undermining group cohesion may be worth the costs

okay

so

why should I?

Ah now that takes us back to ideals and first principles

Fun stuff

To ensure your nation's longevity

Going back to the American point

Please don't

Are you a nihilist out of curiousity?

can we just presume Americans are a single ethnicity?

Moth

yes @Snakeisninja

Eh, not really

How would you describe yourself philosophically

I'm a utilitarian

Well that's where the disagreement lies.

I am not and I assume razor isnt either

So naturally a utilitarian wont value group cohesion the way razor and I do

But, as I was mentioning earlier...

Why should I place my loyalty in a backwoods farmer with different philosophical, ideological, and religious views than me, though does belong to my nation

Over someone, who is likewise an urbanite and shares a common philosophy, ideology, and religion, but just so happens to be a different ethnicity?

Because the backwoods farmer would most likely defend you if your country was attacked, first of all

@SilverLining if you're a utilitarian you shouldn't.

Easy

Wheras the urbanite would most likely defend his ethnic kin first

All we can do here is debate first principles themselves

Its like we're trying to speak different languages

Why should I defend a nation which holds different ideological and philosophical principles than me?