Ah, but now we're delving into individual vs collective

If I'm an 18th century factory worker, you bet I'm going to be a dissident

So you'll lose me as an ally here

oh, not that entirely

I can get some group loyalties

I just don't view "the nation" as the highest loyalty

as the nation can oppose an individual's beliefs

I had a similar discussion earlier in the chat text channel

@SilverLining The nation is the highest loyalty if your nation is a nation-state

okay, the state

my bad

Assuming, you know

it doesn't kill them

Simply put groups are a strategy in which multiple organisms (often with shared genes) cooperate to compete with other groups and organisms. The most successful groups have rules for how group members should interact with each other and when a member breaks the rules the group condemns the rule breaker because he is undermining group cohesion

Even then, you can argue that the real discontent arises with the government

not the nation

By the same logic if a member seeks to undermine the group itself then other members should condemn the rebel for undermining group cohesion

Being loyal to China isn't the same as being loyal to the Communist Party.

oh

this is an even worse point, razor

Mexicans are loyal to neither the United States or the United States Government

Right, so I'm an American

Should I be loyal to other ethnic Americans?

eh, too vague

Supposing I'm a German

should I be loyal to other ethnic germans?

Yes, you should prefer Germans to other people.

However this only applies to groups that are advantageous for the members. If membership is disadvantageous then the benefits of undermining group cohesion may be worth the costs

okay

so

why should I?

Ah now that takes us back to ideals and first principles

Fun stuff

To ensure your nation's longevity

Going back to the American point

Please don't

Are you a nihilist out of curiousity?

can we just presume Americans are a single ethnicity?

Moth

yes @Snakeisninja

Eh, not really