Message from @The Big Oof
Discord ID: 488135947289100289
right, and that's the first in a string of questions
you said it's bad because it underlines national unity
because it harms the nation
Group cohesion to be more general
I'm questioning why "the nation" should lie above every other loyalty
It shouldn't
Exactly
The nation can actively work against an individual
Ah, but now we're delving into individual vs collective
If I'm an 18th century factory worker, you bet I'm going to be a dissident
So you'll lose me as an ally here
oh, not that entirely
I can get some group loyalties
I just don't view "the nation" as the highest loyalty
as the nation can oppose an individual's beliefs
I had a similar discussion earlier in the chat text channel
@SilverLining The nation is the highest loyalty if your nation is a nation-state
okay, the state
my bad
Assuming, you know
Simply put groups are a strategy in which multiple organisms (often with shared genes) cooperate to compete with other groups and organisms. The most successful groups have rules for how group members should interact with each other and when a member breaks the rules the group condemns the rule breaker because he is undermining group cohesion
Even then, you can argue that the real discontent arises with the government
not the nation
By the same logic if a member seeks to undermine the group itself then other members should condemn the rebel for undermining group cohesion
Being loyal to China isn't the same as being loyal to the Communist Party.
oh
this is an even worse point, razor
Mexicans are loyal to neither the United States or the United States Government
Right, so I'm an American
Should I be loyal to other ethnic Americans?
eh, too vague
Supposing I'm a German
should I be loyal to other ethnic germans?
Yes, you should prefer Germans to other people.
However this only applies to groups that are advantageous for the members. If membership is disadvantageous then the benefits of undermining group cohesion may be worth the costs
okay
so
why should I?
Ah now that takes us back to ideals and first principles
Fun stuff