Message from @Reb Trump

Discord ID: 526564207051931650


2018-12-24 00:49:42 UTC  

They make laws for their area and have international recognition from a majority of the world

2018-12-24 00:50:19 UTC  

that's not how it works.

2018-12-24 00:50:39 UTC  

when going by individual recognition

2018-12-24 00:50:55 UTC  

it's a state only within the context of its relationship with that country

2018-12-24 00:51:19 UTC  

if it wants to be a soveirgn state

2018-12-24 00:51:26 UTC  

it needs to be voted in like Israel

2018-12-24 00:51:38 UTC  

and have control over its borders

2018-12-24 00:51:53 UTC  

and it'll only get that

2018-12-24 00:52:01 UTC  

once it negotiates with Israel

2018-12-24 00:52:09 UTC  

The UN says that they don’t have the authority to recognize a state or government

2018-12-24 00:53:32 UTC  

they had no issue when it came to Israel

2018-12-24 00:53:43 UTC  

or any other mid eastern state created at that time

2018-12-24 00:53:58 UTC  

if the legal opinion has since changed

2018-12-24 00:54:08 UTC  

then it now goes by individual bilateral basis

2018-12-24 00:54:08 UTC  

Being voted in has nothing to do with being a state itself. The UN is independent of the existence of states

2018-12-24 00:54:21 UTC  

in which case, it's only a soveirgn nation

2018-12-24 00:54:27 UTC  

once Israel recognizes it

2018-12-24 00:54:35 UTC  

which brings it back to the original conclusion

2018-12-24 00:54:41 UTC  

that it needs to negotiate with Israel

2018-12-24 00:57:52 UTC  

your guys' argument is that the UN has no role here

2018-12-24 00:58:10 UTC  

and that Israel should recognize it because some other country does

2018-12-24 00:58:21 UTC  

which is a new principle

2018-12-24 00:58:39 UTC  

I can as easily argue that those nations shouldn't recognize Palestine because Israel doesn't

2018-12-24 01:14:40 UTC  

Palestine is a state if we use the definition of wikipedia, which I would agree with

2018-12-24 01:14:50 UTC  

"In international law, a sovereign state (or sovereign country) is a nonphysical juridical entity that is represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.[1] It is also normally understood that a sovereign state is neither dependent on nor subjected to any other power or state.[2]"

2018-12-24 01:28:14 UTC  

it doesn't fit any of it

2018-12-24 01:28:52 UTC  

` juridical entity` - can Abbas try Gazan war criminals?

2018-12-24 01:29:33 UTC  

`that is represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area.` - When was the last time Abbas has called off Gazan missiles ?

2018-12-24 01:31:01 UTC  

`as having a permanent population` - this isn't true according even the Palestinians, with them claiming ever growing nth generation refugees

2018-12-24 01:31:29 UTC  

nor is true, because they claim the population of Israeli Arabs

2018-12-24 01:32:07 UTC  

` defined territory` - only if you forget about the West Bank and the northern territory contested between Israel, Syria and Palestine

2018-12-24 01:32:46 UTC  

` one government` - again, this exists in name only. Gaza and West Bank are ran seperately

2018-12-24 01:33:21 UTC  

`and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.` - if Abbas chose to negotiate with Israel, Gaza would not follow

2018-12-24 01:34:00 UTC  

`It is also normally understood that a sovereign state is neither dependent on nor subjected to any other power or state` - Is this one not obvious?

2018-12-24 01:35:44 UTC  

did you bother reading it ?

2018-12-24 01:36:33 UTC  

the fact that it doesn't satisfy the last item is clear to everyone from Bibi to Hezbollah

2018-12-24 03:37:25 UTC  

the point the other guy was making was that palestine didnt even exist
I'll agree with you that they are barely a country given their situation, but in international relations recognizing a country is enough to make a country legitimate, at least in a bilateral basis.

2018-12-24 03:38:52 UTC  

the point about them being able to enforce their laws is still true, they cant really do much to stop what israel is doing, but they still enforce other laws they have, and thats the point. Sovereignty isn't a binary thing. No country in the EU is 100% sovereign

2018-12-24 03:38:57 UTC  

for example

2018-12-24 03:39:59 UTC  

having a few armed forces can be considered an army

2018-12-24 03:42:21 UTC  

the point about the currency isn't very important either. it's probably the most dispensable requirement of sovereignty out of all of them. Using the EU as an example again: No Country prints their own money, the ECB does, and i have no idea where it is located, probably brussels