Message from @campodin

Discord ID: 486242073339625473


2018-09-03 18:16:36 UTC  

No, it's an apple.

2018-09-03 18:16:43 UTC  

The factory is the MOP, the factory is not capital.

2018-09-03 18:17:00 UTC  

The factory is wealth

2018-09-03 18:17:01 UTC  

You have an extremely basic misunderstanding of the words you're using that could be rectified with a simple Google search.

2018-09-03 18:17:15 UTC  

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/452955220473806859/486238259610124300/unknown.png

2018-09-03 18:17:19 UTC  

It is directly translatable into capitol

2018-09-03 18:17:24 UTC  

Took me less than a second to Google that.

2018-09-03 18:17:26 UTC  

You are simply wrong.

2018-09-03 18:17:46 UTC  

how is money the means of production but not factories 🤔🤔🤔

2018-09-03 18:18:17 UTC  

I never said they weren't @ham addition

2018-09-03 18:18:22 UTC  

The entire dichotomy between socialism and capitalism is that in socialism the MOP (factories for example) are owned "socially" (by the workers) and in capitalism the MOP (factories) are owned by capitalists who extract surplus labor from the proletariat.

2018-09-03 18:18:28 UTC  

but money isn't the means of production

2018-09-03 18:18:37 UTC  

It literally has nothing to do with the fruits of labor being translatable to capital.

2018-09-03 18:18:59 UTC  

also spelling capital as capitol pisses me off

2018-09-03 18:19:42 UTC  

when ur wrong so u just call people an idiot 🔥 👌 😂 👌 🔥

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/452955220473806859/486238879423135754/unknown.png

2018-09-03 18:20:10 UTC  

I called you an idiot for saying I said the same thing

2018-09-03 18:20:37 UTC  

From my perspective you were saying it was the same thing, and from your perspective you were mistaken in the words you were using which caused me to misunderstand what you were actually trying to say.

2018-09-03 18:20:51 UTC  

You're wrong either way.

2018-09-03 18:22:15 UTC  

good point

2018-09-03 18:30:25 UTC  

Is the owner on? <@&452955165624893451>

2018-09-03 18:32:24 UTC  

You're assumption that means of production is only material just shows that you know nothing about being a "capitalist"/entrepreneur. They only have what you call means of production because they have the capital (happy?). By turning capital into "means of production" you are simply turning it into real wealth. That real wealth can be directly transferred back into capital. Capital and real wealth are equivalent. That apple example you gave is a means of production, aka real wealth. It can be turned right back into capital by selling it again.

If you take capital from a wealthy person you are necessarily removing his means of production (or if you prefer potential means of production). Alternatively he could take that capital, invest it, and create more capital. Thus his capital was used to produce more capital.

2018-09-03 18:33:29 UTC  

Yeah but that's not what socialism is. Socialism is quite succinctly the ownership of the means of production by the workers, not the redistribution of it by capitalists OR government.

2018-09-03 18:34:02 UTC  

IT's the same principle as when a worker gets a paycheck. If the fruits of their labor is being distributed to them by the capitalist do they then work in a socialist system?

2018-09-03 18:34:05 UTC  

Of course they don't.

2018-09-03 18:34:27 UTC  

Dictatorship of the proletariat is a distinct concept from a welfare state, succeeding a proletariat revolution that takes over the function of the state.

2018-09-03 18:35:27 UTC  

Means of production is similarly a distinct concept. A welfare state has the MOP firmly in the hands of capitalists.

2018-09-03 18:35:27 UTC  

What? Being paid for your labor is not redistribution, it is a fair trade

2018-09-03 18:35:59 UTC  

But it's the same as if government took money from the "capitalist" class (the wealthy) and gave it to you through social programs.

2018-09-03 18:36:20 UTC  

Which is already a horribly false equivalency because it's not overt redistribution of wealth, they're meant to be temporary programs most of the time.

2018-09-03 18:36:22 UTC  

Socialism is when everyone says "gib me dat"

2018-09-03 18:37:04 UTC  

Point is, you're confusing MOP which in a socialist system must be *controlled by* the workers. It says nothing about capital being translated from the result of production. That is completely irrelevant. It's literally about the workers directly controlling the MOP.

2018-09-03 18:37:14 UTC  

Government redistribution is not fair trade

2018-09-03 18:37:18 UTC  

This is just a bad false equivalency meant to make Bernie into a communist.

2018-09-03 18:37:36 UTC  

Who cares if it's fair trade? I'm not a socialist, it's irrelevant if I think it's fair or not.

2018-09-03 18:37:46 UTC  

I'm just explaining how socialists think.

2018-09-03 18:38:51 UTC  

The only way for social programs to be socialist is if the proletariat took over the government and established a dictatorship of the proletariat, in which case it would barely be recognizable as a welfare state.

2018-09-03 18:39:02 UTC  

When the people enacting social programs are a ruling class, not the workers, how is it socialist?

2018-09-03 18:39:10 UTC  

This is a direct contravention of the meaning of the word.

2018-09-03 18:40:57 UTC  

@εïз irma εïз if the mop are collectively owned then if it were to be sold each person would receive a partial amount of the amount it was sold for. Even then, the distribution of capital has been distributed. If they pool their capital to buy more mop they now all collectively own it again. You cannot separate mop from capital.

2018-09-03 18:41:26 UTC  

How are they "buying more MOP"? This would just turn them into a capitalist. Socialism is collective ownership, not redistribution of wealth.

2018-09-03 18:41:38 UTC  

Socialism is wholly incompatible with a capitalist welfare state on a foundation level.